Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

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tdogg
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Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by tdogg » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:11 pm

Hi all,

Looking for any advice on the replacement of a Velvet Drive for my starboard engine.

fluid is full, but drive wont go into forward or reverse. mechanic at marina has said it needs to be repaired.

Below is my drive details, they are direct drives. should I have them rebuilt? or buy used ones (if they can be found). any idea of how much it will cost to rebuild it?

My engines are 270 HP Crusaders, can the V-drives be removed without removing the engines? how heavy are they and can they be pulled out through the centre hatch in the mid-cabin?


TRANSMISSION(S): Borg-Warner Velvet Drive
MODEL: 10-17-008
TRANSMISSION SERIAL#:
PORT: 13947 STBD: 140147
DRIVE (DIRECT/V): Direct Drive RATIO: 1.91 : 1
MANUAL/HYDR: Manual
TRANS COOLING: Raw Water
V-DRIVE OIL WARNING LIGHTS: N/A
SHAFT COUPLING(S): Good condition
SHAFT DIA: 1 3/8” SHAFT MAT’L: Stainless steel

Any and call advice much appreciated. if anyone has used drives, please let me know.

Cheers,

Tdogg
Last edited by tdogg on Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
1987 Trojan F36 Tri-Cabin

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prowlersfish
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard V-Drive failed

Post by prowlersfish » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:28 pm

Your post is a little confusing . First you do not have V-drives being a 87 . You do have Borg-Warner Velvet Drives . Very easy to rebuild ( at least to me lol ) . But there is a good chance the Drive is ok . I assume the shaft is not moving when put in gear ? It was checked right ? ( shafts break and props have come off ). If all that's ok you may have a bad dampener that connects the engine to the gear losing both directions points that way .

If you do need a gear Check with Bob at Beacon


And you can remove the gear and leave the engine in place
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tdogg
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard V-Drive failed

Post by tdogg » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:46 am

Thank you for the info.

You are right, velvet drive. Abbreviation doesn't work in this case :-)
The shaft and prop is in place. It doesn't shift into forward or reverse. The shifter moves relatively easily.

How heavy is the unit?

How hard is it to replace the dampener? Once removed how can I tell it's the dampener.

It has slipped before. But would re-engage.
I was on plane when it just lost forward motion with that drive.

Bob at Beacon Bay might have drives or the parts?

- Tdogg
1987 Trojan F36 Tri-Cabin

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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard V-Drive failed

Post by larryeddington » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:06 am

FYI I had to pull a true V drive. It was a paragon drive in my f28. It was pretty tuff and total weight was about 300 lbs. My son and I did it to change out flywheel. It was tough but doable.

I have an 84 tri-cabin with 270 crusaders, should have same tranny. They look a lot lighter than the paragons, but having a genny between the two engines limits the room to work in but could be done. Good Luck.
Larry Eddington
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tdogg
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by tdogg » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:10 pm

Any chance the dampener can be replaced with Drive pulled back and not removing it?

If removing it will it have to be hoisted through the sunbathing roof?

Any suggestions on part number needed? That seems like the most likely cause.

Again I appreciate all the advice, want to get it back up an running so I can take my family on our annual Trent Severn waterway trip

- Tony
1987 Trojan F36 Tri-Cabin

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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by larryeddington » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:47 pm

Tranny could be pulled back if prop shaft coupler is undone and separated. It will be difficult will need a monkey on one side. If pulled back may be able to see if it is the dampener, but remember you have a bell housing that limits your viewing which I had to remove to9 get the flywheel and dampener off. If need be just have to muscle it out. Not sure of the weight as it is not a vdrive it will be lighter. Once loose I see no reason why two people could not lug it out of the regular cabin door for a rebuild. The tranny has a splined shaft that fits into the damper, similar to a vehicle with a clutch but easier to align and insert when putting it back in. IMO

You will have to raise the rear of the engine and block it up as the rear motor mounts are on the side of the tranny.

Ain't nothing easy but doable. I personally would do it and avoid the dock tech as he will be real spendy. However if you are not very experienced in mechanical things the tech may be a good idea.
Larry Eddington
1984 F-36 Tri Cabin "The Phoenix II"
1978 F-28 "The Phoenix"
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tdogg
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by tdogg » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:54 pm

larryeddington wrote:Tranny could be pulled back if prop shaft coupler is undone and separated. It will be difficult will need a monkey on one side. If pulled back may be able to see if it is the dampener, but remember you have a bell housing that limits your viewing which I had to remove to9 get the flywheel and dampener off. If need be just have to muscle it out. Not sure of the weight as it is not a vdrive it will be lighter. Once loose I see no reason why two people could not lug it out of the regular cabin door for a rebuild. The tranny has a splined shaft that fits into the damper, similar to a vehicle with a clutch but easier to align and insert when putting it back in. IMO

You will have to raise the rear of the engine and block it up as the rear motor mounts are on the side of the tranny.

Ain't nothing easy but doable. I personally would do it and avoid the dock tech as he will be real spendy. However if you are not very experienced in mechanical things the tech may be a good idea.
Thank you! That's what I thought, didn't realize the engine mount is on the tranny side.

I've done my fair share of mechanical. They came back saying 20 hours to pull and reinstall... Based on another boat. So I've asked them to give me a proper one based on my boat...20 hrs seems a bit on the crazy side

I'm thinking I'll get the dampener replacement (if anyone has a recommendation of where to get it please let me know)

When I undo the propeller shaft from the tranny can I pull it back with it in the water? Obviously I have to secure it from slipping down fully.

Any and all pointers are so very helpful.

Cheers,

Tdogg
1987 Trojan F36 Tri-Cabin

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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by gettaway » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:36 pm

Do you have a manual for your transmissions? If not goggle it. Before you start removing the transmission, Check the trouble shooting guide for this issue
Contact the factory and talk to them about the problem
Have you verified the shift cable and cam on the transmission is actually engaging the transmission and not slipping on the post?
Pressure gauge on the cooler line?
Transmission will come out but velvet drives (71-72's) are pretty heavy and you'll have to push the prop shafts back far enough to to remove the spline shaft from the damperplate. When you go to push the prop shaft back, don't forget the rudders are directly behind the props and you may have zincs just before he cutlass bearings , both will stop the shaft from moving to far aft or prevent you from going far enough to pull the transmission
If you replace the transmission, don't forget to realign the engine and shaft
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tdogg
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by tdogg » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:33 pm

gettaway wrote:Do you have a manual for your transmissions? If not goggle it. Before you start removing the transmission, Check the trouble shooting guide for this issue
Contact the factory and talk to them about the problem
Have you verified the shift cable and cam on the transmission is actually engaging the transmission and not slipping on the post?
Pressure gauge on the cooler line?
Transmission will come out but velvet drives (71-72's) are pretty heavy and you'll have to push the prop shafts back far enough to to remove the spline shaft from the damperplate. When you go to push the prop shaft back, don't forget the rudders are directly behind the props and you may have zincs just before he cutlass bearings , both will stop the shaft from moving to far aft or prevent you from going far enough to pull the transmission
If you replace the transmission, don't forget to realign the engine and shaft
Thank you. Good advice. Just to clarify, What would the pressure on the coolant line do with regards to forward and reverse motion?

Where you say slipping on the post, are you thinking the cable came loose? I manually moved the post and nothing happens. It seems too easy to move, not much resistance at all.
1987 Trojan F36 Tri-Cabin

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tdogg
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by tdogg » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:36 pm

Got some feedback from my marina, thoughts welcome:

They are saying that it's not likely the dampener as there is no noise from broken parts inside. Is that true?

What is a reasonable price to refurbish a drive? They are quoting me $2500 CDN + removal and install which I think they are going to estimate close to 15 hours...which I think it a bit crazy...

- Tdogg
1987 Trojan F36 Tri-Cabin

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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by AlphaJustin » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Velvet drives already rebuilt on eBay go for about 600-1800 we all know how far you can trust ebay but 2500 is insane.
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by BeaconMarineBob » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Give us a call
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by Jimmy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:57 pm

I pulled mine out (3 hrs). Rebuilt it for around $300.00 with parts kit off EBay. But you need to be somewhat handy. Engine needs to be supported and re-alignment is critical after re-install. Weighs about 125 150 lbs I'd guess. I have a post on it here somewhere
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Barrie
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by Barrie » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:29 pm

What ever was the out come of this. Was the transmission busted?
Just asking because I have a couple extra I will have no need of... free.... you pick up. Velvet drive 1.91:1
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Re: Drive advice needed - Starboard Velvet Drive failed

Post by mrjake56 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:22 pm

tdogg,

If look n the owner's manual string, another member was kind enough to provide a link o he on-line storage site where his manuals at available for viewing or download. The Velvet Drive manual lists your drive at 95 lb w/o reduction, and 145 lb with reduction (Additional section on the output end of the drive.

The manual is very comprehensive and provides detailed instructions, specs, and part numbers.

Mrjake

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