Interesting Trojan Story

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Captain Chill
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by Captain Chill » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:10 pm

I've been debating the direction of my vents for a while now and would like to get a final answer on the issue.

It seems the overall consensus is to have the forward vent facing "backwards" to be more "open" and get more passive air into the vent.

A captain friend of mine thinks that to be dangerous. He understands the idea if I was on a small lake or river but since I use the boat on The Pacific Ocean he thinks it could be hazardous in certain situations. What do you all think I should do?
'The Pacific Chill' - F26 -1976

cappy
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by cappy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:24 pm

VENT DIRECTION..

The reason Trojan (and others) face the intakes of the FWD vents to the stern, and the AFT vents are facing forward, is because the natural airflow inside these boats is FORWARD. ("Station Wagon Effect" )

The FWD vents are placed at the widest point on the hull (air EXIT) where the air pressure is lowest , and the rear vents (intakes) are place on the narrowest part of the hull where the air pressure is (relatively) highest. Think of the curve along the hull side acting like the cross section of the wing of an airplane when the boat is at anchor or moving creating airflow along the hull around it.

Turning the vents around, (now FWD vents facing FWD and AFT vents facing AFT) reduces their effectiveness significantly..

Dave

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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by JES2309 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:26 am

I realize this is a late comment on this thread but I thought I needed to post anyway. I am looking at purchasing an F32 as I have always loved this boats lines and the way she handles. I would like to know from someone who owns one and has experienced a rough day on lake Ontario, what is a safe wave height to travel in the F32 before it becomes dangerous? The reason is that I need to somehow get the boat from Kingston to Whitby, about 120miles of open water around False Duck Island. While it's fine to pick and choose the day to make the trip, lake Ontario can get really ugly very quickly from my experience on both my Dad's boats. Which by the way we're both very seaworthy. Any advise would be appreciated! Thanks

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DAVIDLOFLAND
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by DAVIDLOFLAND » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:34 am

The worst sea state for the F32 is not really big seas (10 - 15 footers). It is in fact close, steep six to eight footers. That's where I've been scared multiple times and almost became a statistic twice. In a steep, short wavelength, following sea the F32 will turn 90 degrees, broach and roll in the blink of an eye. I've been there and 'almost' done that more than once.
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by JES2309 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:53 pm

So she's really a fair weather boat is kind of what you're saying?

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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by prowlersfish » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:34 pm

Steep 6-8 will beet the hell out of you even in a much larger boat ,Talking Waves not seas . The 32 and even the F36 are not off shore battle wagons .

But pick your days and it can be done .
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mikeandanne
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by mikeandanne » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:26 pm

JES2309 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:26 am
I realize this is a late comment on this thread but I thought I needed to post anyway. I am looking at purchasing an F32 as I have always loved this boats lines and the way she handles. I would like to know from someone who owns one and has experienced a rough day on lake Ontario, what is a safe wave height to travel in the F32 before it becomes dangerous? The reason is that I need to somehow get the boat from Kingston to Whitby, about 120miles of open water around False Duck Island. While it's fine to pick and choose the day to make the trip, lake Ontario can get really ugly very quickly from my experience on both my Dad's boats. Which by the way we're both very seaworthy. Any advise would be appreciated! Thanks

Why not go the back way thru Quinte and out the Murray canal by Brighton, then down the shore to Whitby. Easy that way and much calmer.You will enjoy that trip.
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Fishblues
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by Fishblues » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:57 pm

So I have read the this article and the replies to it. And having been scared to death the first time it happened to me in NY harbor coming under the Verrazano bridge with the family I researched the hell out of this phenomenon... bow steering :twisted:

If I have a sea state that I am not comfortable with I keep the stern in the water, no trim tabs! and I get in as soon as possible, or if i know ahead of time I don't leave the dock.

Question, If you are in the midst of taking the trip, bow steering, I am not sure their is a way out of it except to hold on for dear life and take the ride! If I am incorrect and someone has been able to correct their craft once in the wake I would sure like to know about it. Thanks all.

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DAVIDLOFLAND
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by DAVIDLOFLAND » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:11 pm

If you find yourself in this unfortunate sea condition and are unable to steer into the sea, you have to either power up and outrun the sea, which can be hairy in itself, or slow down and let the sea pass under you while steering with the throttles only. Trim tabs fully retracted in either scenario.
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by rickalan35 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:02 am

"Bow Steer" is something we've probably all experienced to some degree at some point. No fun and point well taken David. Couldn't agree more.

Rick
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captainmaniac
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by captainmaniac » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:18 am

Woah .... looking at this post it's a much longer response than I intended, but hopefully helpful and worth it!!!

Want to steer this back to Jes2309's original concerns - the F32 can handle Lake Ontario just fine unless it is really snotty. The lake is not that bad most of the time. Don't know what type / size of boat your father had, but unless similar to a F32 your remembrances may not apply. As others have posted, take the inside route from Kingston through Adolphus Reach towards Picton, Long Reach towards Deseronto, Bay of Quinte past Belleville and on towards Trenton, out through the Murray Canal to Brighton, and then out around Pres'q'ile Point. You are in protected waters (other than just west of Kingston if there is a south or south west wind as seas with a 60-100+ mile fetch funnel in between Amherst and Simcoe Islands) all the way to Pres'q'uile. And watch out for weeds there!!! And the bad spot just west of Kingston is not that bad if you are heading west into it (just reduce speed to 8-10 knots and keep the bow high), a much less happy place if heading east as you go from totally calm and protected waters to suddenly having 3-6' waves or swells on the stern quarter for 2-4 miles.... I have seen a 60-70' Hatteras zig-zagging through this section to reduce the roll!

Taking this inside route you will cover a bit more distance, but it is all protected waters. That way you are only on the open lake for less than 60 miles to Whitby.

If it has really been blowing in the same direction for days, the lake can get bad. After a really bad storm give it a day or two to calm down before heading out. But in general close / short wavelength or short period waves are the challenge for the F32, not wave height. Give me an 8' swell or waves 100+' apart - no problem. Give me 3-4 footers 50' apart, the ride is a bugger! Overtaking waves directly on the stern, or worse on the stern quarters, are the F32's weak spot as it wants to surf, and the postage stamp sized rudders don't help.

I have had my F32 for about 20 years and done a similar trip several times (Hamilton to various destinations between Cobourg (100 miles) to the Thousand Islands (Kingston, Gananoque, Ivy Lea, Rockport, Brocville, Rockport) and return. Have also done similar trips multiple times when I was a kid in my father's 1969 Trojan 28' Sea Skiff (wood hull), and again multiple times in my previous 26' Four Winns Liberator, over the past 40 years. The lake is easily manageable.

Don't let the concerns around the trip from Kingston to Whitby influence your purchasing decision. An F32 can handle Lake Ontario 95+ % of our boating season.

Is it the right boat for you in terms of accommodations and layout? Does it have the amenities and systems and electronics you want? If not, can you add them at a reasonable cost? Does it work for how you want to use it? Get a Survey, and does the survey say it is a good boat? Get a mechanical inspection, and does the mechanical inspection say it is good? Make any purchasing decision based on those factors... getting it 'home' is not really a factor in the decision unless you are thinking of bringing it back from a hugely remote distance (east or west coast, or southern US). \\

If it's the right boat, get it! If needed, I can probably help you get it home!

From a logistics point of view, 120 miles may be a bit of a stretch for one run on the F32 unless the boat you end up with has the auxiliary fuel tanks. On the base 50 Cdn Gallon/side tanks (62 US Gallons each side) range is limited to about 100 miles before refueling, and that is pushing it a bit given the 1/3 out / 1/3 back / 1/3 reserve rule. I have done 90-100 miles Hamilton to Cobourg (and deking in to Toronto harbour to cruise harbourfront, check out Hanlan's Point, pop into and do some sight seeing in other marinas in Bronte, Oakville, Port Credit, etc... along the way). Starting with full tanks, I needed to refuel with 85-90 gallons after the run. The tanks only hold 100... so I have been down to my last 10 gallons... If the boat you are considering has the saddle tanks, that is less of a concern.

Aside from fuel considerations - a 120 miles plus trip in this boat will probably take at least 7 hours travel time, which can be very draining if there are any issues on the lake or conditions cause you to reduce speed. Typically the F32 cruises around 16-18 knots around 2800-3200 RPM - the 'sweet spot'.

Would definitely say the F32 will do you well on Lake Ontario. Would recommend Kingston to Trenton in one day and refuel there, then do second day Trenton to Whitby -- especially if the boat is new to you.

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prowlersfish
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by prowlersfish » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:05 am

One thing I may add there are a ton of F32s on the Great lakes , many in charter . That should say something .
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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: Interesting Trojan Story

Post by todd brinkerhoff » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:38 am

DAVIDLOFLAND wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:07 am
I've seen this story pop up multiple times over the years but have never had the courage to speak up about it. All I can say is it was very good legal team that won a judgement based on the 'design' of the aft air intakes. While I do agree the F32 design helped kill those folks, I do not believe it had anything to do with any air intakes. I'm not any kind of marine forensic expert, but I do have some experience with an F32. I've owned my F32, the 'Instant Fun' for 28 years this coming March. I've logged just under 6,000 hours at the the helm (based on engine hours) all offshore Alaska. I've been in some pretty gnarly stuff. Never have I encountered any sea state while underway at any speed that has caused water to enter the aft vents. Just look over the side while underway at any speed and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Yes, mine are still facing forward.
In my humble opinion, that boat broached and rolled. The worst sea state for the F32 is not really big seas (10 - 15 footers). It is in fact close, steep six to eight footers. That's where I've been scared multiple times and almost became a statistic twice. In a steep, short wavelength, following sea the F32 will turn 90 degrees, broach and roll in the blink of an eye. I've been there and 'almost' done that more than once. That is what I am very sure happened to those folks.
While I do not regard it as a design 'flaw', the problem is indeed inherent to the design of the hull, i.e. flat bottom and wide square stern. I obviously love the hell out of my F32, as she is my 'forever boat', but I have have learned her weaknesses, not the least of which is that she is not a truly 'seaworthy' boat. She is designed to be comfortable and go fast in relatively calm water. If you're gonna run an F32 offshore, you better know her idiosyncrasies and pay attention.
Thanks, I finally got all that off my chest.
Excellent observation.

Unless you’ve been on the Great Lakes, you would have no idea the power and treacherouness of these huge bodies of water. Back in the 90’s Rochester, NY sponsored an off shore race, with experienced racers coming from around the country. After numerous accident due to the rough sea conditions, the race was never continued.

The Great Lakes can go from flat to 7-8’ short interval breaking wave conditions quickly. It’s taken 100s of thousands of ships. Your assessment is very accurate.
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