My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by todd brinkerhoff » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:21 am

Yes, totally understood. But I’m not sure what Carver changed in manufacturing and what they did that may have been consistent with the original Trojan 10.8 Express. I haven’t found a 370 owner who’s ok with me tearing apart their boat yet to compare. Lol

When I see a 370 or 390, I usually poke around to see the differences. I think Carver made some good design changes, but I also think the 10.8 was probably way too expensive of a design and engineering for Carver to make money, so it’s probably inevitable that there were some changes to design and quality. Remember, Trojan was banking a lot on this new design and wanted to compete with some very high quality and reputable companies. Of course, along with the new luxury tax, it bankrupted the company.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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rickalan35
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by rickalan35 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:43 pm

Todd, do you think there was any truth to the thought that Carver was facing a royalties issue to Bertram if they utilized the Trojan mould of the 10.8 and as a result, built a new hull which featured enough modification as to avoid legal issues................ or do think that explanation was just another urban legend?? It seemed odd to me that they would haul the moulds all the way to Wisconsin and then garbage them as I believe I read that the moulds were the only pieces of Trojan hardware to make it through the bankruptcy and show up at Carver......... but that could be wrong too.

Cheers

Rick
Trojan 1994 370 Express, 502 Bluewaters

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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by todd brinkerhoff » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:24 pm

Everything at this point is speculation. From talking to 2 Tojan guys, the relationship with Harry Schoell had soured, and Trojan was definitely looking for an alternative plan. They blame the design, but I think Harry was probably taking some big royalties considering every international had his hull design.

I’m pretty mad at myself. I had an article that I purchased that had the write up of the Bertram staff involvement with the 10.8 but it’s been lost, and of course I didn’t read it completely at the time.

Honestly, I’m assuming the designer ( who I’ve concluded to be a Dave Napier) was set up for a royalty from every boat sold, but due to the bankruptcy, I think he probably got screwed. I’m not sure how carver dealt with it. I’ve also been told that the 10.8 was extremely expensive to build and the post mold effort was extensive, so it might be a little if both, or neither. Again, I can’t find someone who was heavily involved in this project. I love the boat, but it’s underpowered....like wayyyy underpowered. But quality, I’ll put it up against any Bertram, Viking, tiara, hatteras from that generation. I have integrated steps on each rear corner that are probably 30 lbs and supported by 1/2 stainless steel. The hull is 2” of fiberglass. It’s really impressive to see the build quality. But the power is embarrassingly inadequate. Even the diesel option was sub par. This boat needs 450 diesels.

The V drives rob a lot of power, and I’m baffled by the fact that there’s no lifting strakes. Bertram’s have lifting strakes. I understand why Schoells design doesn’t as it has HUGE chines, but this design is so far under water, at least 3’7”, probably more, it just doesn’t make sense.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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rickalan35
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by rickalan35 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:35 am

Very interesting indeed, Todd.

The draft on the 370 that Carver built and I now own is a very deep 4' 2", so it's even deeper than the 10.8 was. Nobody in my marina needs as much water as I do.

I know you've been around the 370 hull while dry-docked and you probably noticed the downward angle of the props. They push back and more downward than is the norm (in my opinion). Carver must have some sort of reason for setting it up that way (I'm assuming it helps the boat up on plane but not sure)........ but when I reverse the engines in shallow water, boy do I bring up a mess of whatever happens to be down there. My former Trojan tri-cabin had a draft in the manual of 2'10" and I sort of believe it because I got through some shall places with her on idle while I was just cringing.

No 10.8's in my area that I've ever been able to discover and I have no idea what happened to the one in Toronto that was tied up in a legal fiasco and taken off the market.
Trojan 1994 370 Express, 502 Bluewaters

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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by todd brinkerhoff » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:38 pm

502 was originally an option, but I think they pulled it at last minute because of ongoing issues with engine consistency. When running well, they were great.

What’s your spreed at 32-3400 rpm s and wot?
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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rickalan35
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by rickalan35 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 pm

Re: What’s your spreed at 32-3400 rpm s and wot?

Todd, I hate to admit it but I have no idea.

I've only had it wide open once. If running hard I'm still slightly under three thousand rpm. Tell you what, I'll get out within the next week and find out the answers.

I'm like the farmer who drives around in his pick-up truck at 40 mph.

But my 502's run great, in my opinion. They have 647 hours on them which I realize is low for a '94 vintage boat. But the "old guy" who owned it for the previous 14 years used it to play rummy in the cockpit with his friends. This is now my fifth year with the boat. The port side uses a bit of oil... not much but some. The bill of sale indicates the first owner paid out $9,000 for the 502 option. I have a difficult time imagining myself feeling the need to upgrade from 454 cid if it was going to cost me that much.
Trojan 1994 370 Express, 502 Bluewaters

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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by todd brinkerhoff » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:18 am

It was during the time that gasoline was cheap. The only other option during that time was the Caterpillar 3116, which only produced 300 hp. It was an expensive option on a debatably reliable diesel. The boat was even slower with that diesel. If you wanted the fastest option, the 502 was it. Nowadays, technology and higher reving lightweight diesels would have improved the performance significantly.

I think inboard gasoline engines will be a thing of the past in the near future. Technology of outboard motors and lightweight diesels is so great right now, both of which are safer than gasoline inboards, that I think they’ll push gas engines out of the industry. I’m seeing outboards on huge boats now.

I too travel slow. Even when running on plane. Lol. I treat my boat more like a trawler. Saves me a lot of gas. But yes, if you get a chance. I would like to see the performance numbers of your 502. They’re known to burn oil, so no worries there.And check your manual for the 502 wide open throttle rpm. They run higher than the 454. I think 4800-5000.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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Re: My First Boat - 1997 Trojan 390 Express - Caught between 2 worlds

Post by RWS » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:52 pm

this is a GOOD THREAD

RWS
1983 Trojan International 10 Meter
Twin Yanmar 315 Turbodiesels
Solid Glass Hull
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Trojan International Website: http://trojanboat.com/

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