I purchased an F32 going on two years ago, since then I been able to go fishing maybe three times, I keep having trouble with the stbd side engine. When I bought the boat I was told the port engine was a new Pleasurecraft 351 Ford H.O. engine, and the stbd side was a new rebuild First Mate engine, 351 Ford, I brought the boat to Tampa from Tarpon Springs with no problems, the following weekend I went to go out and the engine was barking back through the carburator, then a watery oil mixture came up through the rocker arm cover vent.
I ordered a rebuild duplicate engine from First Mate and had it professonally installed, the same problem, the engine would back fire through the carb at 3500 rpm's, Had that engine pulled out and inspected, I was told the engine was built as a economy car engine and no horse power, so I had it rebuilt again, it was test ran on the shop floor, ran a short time and that engine came apart, ending with a craked block and head, had one more engine built, sounded like this was going to be the one, sounded as good as the high output engine on the port side, sea trialed for about 3 miles, I could never get the engine over 3000 rpm's, then the engine quit and will not restart. the engine sounded like it was overloaded at 3000 rpm, oil pressure was 70lbs. water temp 160 degrees.
Each engine seemed like it was overloaded at 3000 rpm's, at this point I ready to give up, would the velvet drive be causing the engine to overload? On the way back to the dock I was able to get the boat up to 7 knots with about 2 foot seas, when both engines were running I could only get 6.5 knots in the same seas. Can someone give any advice besides sell the boat?
Thanks,
Rusty
F32 engine trouble, can someone help?
Moderators: BeaconMarineBob, Moderator, BeaconMarineDon
Good afternoon Jav,
Sorry I did not get back sooner,
I will have to get the info you asked about, I do not have it here.
When I purchased to vessel, I had it surveyed and at that time I had new shafts, couplings and bearings installed, bottom cleaned and painted, all sea valves reworked, wheels cleaned , rudder post packed and one straightened. At that time I still had the original First Mate engine on the stbd side that I bought it with, during the test drive both engines sounded great and we were doing about 18 knots. After having the recommended repairs made I then drove the boat to Tampa, with no problems. Shortly after that I had to replace both forward fuel tanks, and had both engines removed, new tanks installed, after the repairs, I had trouble keeping the stbd engine running from the repair marina to my home marina, returned to the repair marina and had both carbs rebuilt. picked up the boat and still had trouble with the stbd engine on the way to my home marina, stopped and found a wire to the coil was shorting on the manifold, repaired the wire and the engine seemed to operate ok, the next week end going out the river, got the engines to 3500 rpm and the stbd engine started back firing through the carb and shut down, when trying to restart the engine rolled over, clanged and the milky oily ooze came out the vent cap, had that engine pulled out and I ordered a long block from First Mate, had it installed, had the shafts blasted , the bottom redone and everything was clean during that test, had the same back firing at 3500 rpm, had that engine pulled and inspected and was told about the economy rebuild problems, had that one rebuilt again, it then came apart during floor testing, had one more built and is currently installed, during testing had the same issue of back firing through the carb, when I returned to the dock one of the marina machanics jumped in and felt the coil, it was extremlly hot, the mechanic that built the engine changed the coil and I retested, that's when I could only get 3000 rpm out of the engine no matter how much throttle I gave it, the engine sounded overloaded, but did not back fire, I heard a little rattle noise and then it shut down and will not restart. During that test with both engines running I was only able to get around 6 knots, after the stbd engine failed, I was about 2 miles from the river and ship traffic required that get out of the way so I brought the port engine up to 3000 rpm and was able to move around 7 knots, the bottom is clean, shaft and props clean. and the stbd wheel was spinning free on the way back to the dock. One other item is the stbd engine seemed like it used more fuel than the port.
I really like the boat but I find myself getting discusted and sometimes wanting to give up, hopefully with some advice from folks like you maybe I can get to finally enjoy my boat, plus my wife does not understand about all the money I've invested and still an't use the boat.
Thanks,
Rusty Sorry if I was so long winded
Sorry I did not get back sooner,
I will have to get the info you asked about, I do not have it here.
When I purchased to vessel, I had it surveyed and at that time I had new shafts, couplings and bearings installed, bottom cleaned and painted, all sea valves reworked, wheels cleaned , rudder post packed and one straightened. At that time I still had the original First Mate engine on the stbd side that I bought it with, during the test drive both engines sounded great and we were doing about 18 knots. After having the recommended repairs made I then drove the boat to Tampa, with no problems. Shortly after that I had to replace both forward fuel tanks, and had both engines removed, new tanks installed, after the repairs, I had trouble keeping the stbd engine running from the repair marina to my home marina, returned to the repair marina and had both carbs rebuilt. picked up the boat and still had trouble with the stbd engine on the way to my home marina, stopped and found a wire to the coil was shorting on the manifold, repaired the wire and the engine seemed to operate ok, the next week end going out the river, got the engines to 3500 rpm and the stbd engine started back firing through the carb and shut down, when trying to restart the engine rolled over, clanged and the milky oily ooze came out the vent cap, had that engine pulled out and I ordered a long block from First Mate, had it installed, had the shafts blasted , the bottom redone and everything was clean during that test, had the same back firing at 3500 rpm, had that engine pulled and inspected and was told about the economy rebuild problems, had that one rebuilt again, it then came apart during floor testing, had one more built and is currently installed, during testing had the same issue of back firing through the carb, when I returned to the dock one of the marina machanics jumped in and felt the coil, it was extremlly hot, the mechanic that built the engine changed the coil and I retested, that's when I could only get 3000 rpm out of the engine no matter how much throttle I gave it, the engine sounded overloaded, but did not back fire, I heard a little rattle noise and then it shut down and will not restart. During that test with both engines running I was only able to get around 6 knots, after the stbd engine failed, I was about 2 miles from the river and ship traffic required that get out of the way so I brought the port engine up to 3000 rpm and was able to move around 7 knots, the bottom is clean, shaft and props clean. and the stbd wheel was spinning free on the way back to the dock. One other item is the stbd engine seemed like it used more fuel than the port.
I really like the boat but I find myself getting discusted and sometimes wanting to give up, hopefully with some advice from folks like you maybe I can get to finally enjoy my boat, plus my wife does not understand about all the money I've invested and still an't use the boat.
Thanks,
Rusty Sorry if I was so long winded
Rusty,
there isn't enough information with which to offer much help. Theres some obvious problems, such as speed. When both engines were running good, your 18 knot top speed is low. Presuming those 351's were around 250 HP, you should have been able to hit 23-26 knots depending on boat weight. So even when things were good, something was not right.
Also, you mentioned after the third engine replacement, that you could only get to 3000 RPM no matter how much throttle you gave it. You further stated that the boat would not go past 7 knots. At around 3000 RPM, that boat should have been on plane and doing 13-17 knots!
Somethings to consider- prop rotation. Are you sure they are spinning coorectly? (you don't have one engine fighting the opther?) Couls one of your original engines have been counter rotataing where the new ones are not? Are the velvet drives reversing the prop rotation and are you running one on forward and one in reverse ? (which may be a problem if your running your running 71C gears). Are you sure you don't have some plug wires crossed? The possibilities are endless but you need to start with the basics in the first post so we can figure out if the boat is propped right and how it should be performing.
there isn't enough information with which to offer much help. Theres some obvious problems, such as speed. When both engines were running good, your 18 knot top speed is low. Presuming those 351's were around 250 HP, you should have been able to hit 23-26 knots depending on boat weight. So even when things were good, something was not right.
Also, you mentioned after the third engine replacement, that you could only get to 3000 RPM no matter how much throttle you gave it. You further stated that the boat would not go past 7 knots. At around 3000 RPM, that boat should have been on plane and doing 13-17 knots!
Somethings to consider- prop rotation. Are you sure they are spinning coorectly? (you don't have one engine fighting the opther?) Couls one of your original engines have been counter rotataing where the new ones are not? Are the velvet drives reversing the prop rotation and are you running one on forward and one in reverse ? (which may be a problem if your running your running 71C gears). Are you sure you don't have some plug wires crossed? The possibilities are endless but you need to start with the basics in the first post so we can figure out if the boat is propped right and how it should be performing.
Rusty,
You mentioned that you had the fuel tanks replaced. Did you do this due to internal or external corrosion? If internal, there may be some rust that made it up into your fuel system and created a partial blockage. Check the lines, anti-syphon valves, shut off valves, filters, etc.
hope this helps
Paul
Cruise Control
You mentioned that you had the fuel tanks replaced. Did you do this due to internal or external corrosion? If internal, there may be some rust that made it up into your fuel system and created a partial blockage. Check the lines, anti-syphon valves, shut off valves, filters, etc.
hope this helps
Paul
Cruise Control
Good afternoon Paul,
The more I think through all this, all this trouble started after I had the fwd tanks replaced, the were replaced due to internal corrosion and leaks, about 3 - 4 months ago I had the complete fuel filter assemblies replaced for both engines. I also have a temporary in-line glass filter so I could verify fuel flow to the stbd carb, I installed this when the 2nd engine was back firing through the carb. During testing the 3rd engine I checked the flow at about 2500 rpm and the center of the filter had fuel flowing but the entire glass did not fill up, after returning to the dock and trying to figure out why the stbd engine would not restart, I opened the distributor to make sure the rotor would turn, checked for spark from the coil, and the glass filter filled instantly when I tried to start.
I goofed and sent Jav a PM reply in stead of posting it, here is what I sent to him, the port engine spins CCW looking from the shaft end, the stbd engine spins CW looking from the shaft end, the stbd has a Model AS271C R Velvet drive, was not able to verify shaft rotation late last night, but will do these things today, shaft rotation, firing order, check some pictures for info on the props. Thanks, Rusty
The more I think through all this, all this trouble started after I had the fwd tanks replaced, the were replaced due to internal corrosion and leaks, about 3 - 4 months ago I had the complete fuel filter assemblies replaced for both engines. I also have a temporary in-line glass filter so I could verify fuel flow to the stbd carb, I installed this when the 2nd engine was back firing through the carb. During testing the 3rd engine I checked the flow at about 2500 rpm and the center of the filter had fuel flowing but the entire glass did not fill up, after returning to the dock and trying to figure out why the stbd engine would not restart, I opened the distributor to make sure the rotor would turn, checked for spark from the coil, and the glass filter filled instantly when I tried to start.
I goofed and sent Jav a PM reply in stead of posting it, here is what I sent to him, the port engine spins CCW looking from the shaft end, the stbd engine spins CW looking from the shaft end, the stbd has a Model AS271C R Velvet drive, was not able to verify shaft rotation late last night, but will do these things today, shaft rotation, firing order, check some pictures for info on the props. Thanks, Rusty
Good Morning,
I have somewhat of an update, I had the engine shop meet me yesterday and check out the stbd engine, he was able to get it running and it has a pretty good tap in the engine, he thinks the oil pressure was to high (75-80 lbs) causing a valve to float and thinks thats why I could only get up to 3000 rpm. Both transmissions are turning the same direction as the engines, he checked the firing order, and while it was running pulled each plug wire to verify each cylinder was firing. He was going on vactaion next week so I scheduled my boat to be hauled the end of next week, to pull that engine and have him repair it, and then I can verify the props. Talked to the marina and they can wieght my boat during the haul out, so I can verify that. I'm hoping the cause of the 2nd motor failure was the bad coil, and the failure of this one is oil pressure. just seems odd all three failures on the same side one after another
Thanks for all your help and I'll keep you posted with the results of the haul out
Rusty
I have somewhat of an update, I had the engine shop meet me yesterday and check out the stbd engine, he was able to get it running and it has a pretty good tap in the engine, he thinks the oil pressure was to high (75-80 lbs) causing a valve to float and thinks thats why I could only get up to 3000 rpm. Both transmissions are turning the same direction as the engines, he checked the firing order, and while it was running pulled each plug wire to verify each cylinder was firing. He was going on vactaion next week so I scheduled my boat to be hauled the end of next week, to pull that engine and have him repair it, and then I can verify the props. Talked to the marina and they can wieght my boat during the haul out, so I can verify that. I'm hoping the cause of the 2nd motor failure was the bad coil, and the failure of this one is oil pressure. just seems odd all three failures on the same side one after another
Thanks for all your help and I'll keep you posted with the results of the haul out
Rusty
Good Evening,
I finally have some more info on the stbd engine problem, the engine builder inspected and found 2 vavles floated and one piston was broke, he is anticipating the parts to be delivered by friday and I should have the engine back in by the end of next week.
During the haul out the boat weighed 18,000 lbs. the growth on the bottom was not bad at all, usually within two weeks the growth can be an inch or better, this time it was about 1/4" and brushed off easy, we allowed for 200 gallons of fuel and 30 gal of water and estimated the weight at 1500 lbs., The marina owner said his scales are within 500lbs. of being correct. so we are guessing the boat weighs about 16,000 lbs. According to the survey my props are three blade 15 x 14 and appear to be installed in the right position, one other note in the survey, it listed max speed was 20 knots, full rpm was 4800, and cruise rpm was 4000.
Thanks again,
Rusty
I finally have some more info on the stbd engine problem, the engine builder inspected and found 2 vavles floated and one piston was broke, he is anticipating the parts to be delivered by friday and I should have the engine back in by the end of next week.
During the haul out the boat weighed 18,000 lbs. the growth on the bottom was not bad at all, usually within two weeks the growth can be an inch or better, this time it was about 1/4" and brushed off easy, we allowed for 200 gallons of fuel and 30 gal of water and estimated the weight at 1500 lbs., The marina owner said his scales are within 500lbs. of being correct. so we are guessing the boat weighs about 16,000 lbs. According to the survey my props are three blade 15 x 14 and appear to be installed in the right position, one other note in the survey, it listed max speed was 20 knots, full rpm was 4800, and cruise rpm was 4000.
Thanks again,
Rusty
Engine Trouble
Rusty,
You issues are strangely similar to issues we've had on my dad's f-32. We've had the motors running fine, though the port engine wouldn't go over 3000 RPM.
Then just this past weekend the newest engine (2 years old) blew up hard!. Radiator fluid filled the crank case and upon removing a spark plug found the piston has a hole in it.
2 things to note: 1. You mechanic saying the high oil pressure will cause valve float doesn't hold water. Usually this is a condition where the valve springs are too weak and the lifters lose contact with the cam lobes, hence the contact withthe piston, bend valves etc...
2. In troubleshooting our issues, we were headed down the coil path before the new blown engine. are thought was that the coil was wired backwards causing loss of voltage to the coil, and smaller spark, low RPMs. We found that the carb chokes when wired in reverse may cause this issue.
Now we are in the process of planning to pull both engines, fixing the forward tank sending units, cleaning the engine room and replacing with new engines. I'll post our results with new engines.
You issues are strangely similar to issues we've had on my dad's f-32. We've had the motors running fine, though the port engine wouldn't go over 3000 RPM.
Then just this past weekend the newest engine (2 years old) blew up hard!. Radiator fluid filled the crank case and upon removing a spark plug found the piston has a hole in it.
2 things to note: 1. You mechanic saying the high oil pressure will cause valve float doesn't hold water. Usually this is a condition where the valve springs are too weak and the lifters lose contact with the cam lobes, hence the contact withthe piston, bend valves etc...
2. In troubleshooting our issues, we were headed down the coil path before the new blown engine. are thought was that the coil was wired backwards causing loss of voltage to the coil, and smaller spark, low RPMs. We found that the carb chokes when wired in reverse may cause this issue.
Now we are in the process of planning to pull both engines, fixing the forward tank sending units, cleaning the engine room and replacing with new engines. I'll post our results with new engines.
Engine problem
Hi Rusty:
I found that old distributors with centrifugal spark advancement do not hold up if there old and original equipment. I replaced my distributors so the engines would stay timed properly and most importantly my flame arrestors, (air filters) and got another 2000 RPM out of my engines.
Before all this it was a wild goose chase looking for the lack of power problem. I could only get 2200 RPM and now I am at factory rated 4000 rpm.
F-30 1976 Chysler 318's
Tom Scott
I found that old distributors with centrifugal spark advancement do not hold up if there old and original equipment. I replaced my distributors so the engines would stay timed properly and most importantly my flame arrestors, (air filters) and got another 2000 RPM out of my engines.
Before all this it was a wild goose chase looking for the lack of power problem. I could only get 2200 RPM and now I am at factory rated 4000 rpm.
F-30 1976 Chysler 318's
Tom Scott
Good afternoon,
Well here we are 2 1/2 weeks later and the mechanic just assembled and installed the heads last night, and he thinks he should have it running on his floor by Friday, and heading back to the marina by Monday.
I will check on the wiring of the coil myself before it's cranked, I had a new electronic distributor installed before the engine went south the third time, the flame arresters are clean, there is difference between the engine carb set up, the port engine has the wedge under the carb with a hose from the back side of the wedge to the pcv valve and the stbd has a wedge but no port for the hose, the hose is connected from a port on the base of the carb to the pcv valve. As far as the oil pressure being to high, I've talked to a couple other mechanics and they have the same feeling, that the valves would not have floated.
I haven't been able to get a straight answer from the mechanic as exactly what caused the current problems, he also told me he found another burned piston, he said it was burned on the back side and it was caused by lack of cooling. Oil pressure and water temp were watched continously during the engine testing, we had good water flow out the exhaust and the temp gauge was reading 160*. He thinks maybe an air pocket in the block.
So now everything is scheduled for early next week to install the engine.
I will post the results, hopefully good news. and thanks for all the input, it sure helps me ask the right questions and look for other problems.
Thanks again,
Rusty
Well here we are 2 1/2 weeks later and the mechanic just assembled and installed the heads last night, and he thinks he should have it running on his floor by Friday, and heading back to the marina by Monday.
I will check on the wiring of the coil myself before it's cranked, I had a new electronic distributor installed before the engine went south the third time, the flame arresters are clean, there is difference between the engine carb set up, the port engine has the wedge under the carb with a hose from the back side of the wedge to the pcv valve and the stbd has a wedge but no port for the hose, the hose is connected from a port on the base of the carb to the pcv valve. As far as the oil pressure being to high, I've talked to a couple other mechanics and they have the same feeling, that the valves would not have floated.
I haven't been able to get a straight answer from the mechanic as exactly what caused the current problems, he also told me he found another burned piston, he said it was burned on the back side and it was caused by lack of cooling. Oil pressure and water temp were watched continously during the engine testing, we had good water flow out the exhaust and the temp gauge was reading 160*. He thinks maybe an air pocket in the block.
So now everything is scheduled for early next week to install the engine.
I will post the results, hopefully good news. and thanks for all the input, it sure helps me ask the right questions and look for other problems.
Thanks again,
Rusty
Valve float, and burnt piston
Hi Rusty, I hope this last fix is really the last fix. If you put 2 valves through the piston, it was probably due to improper vavle lash adjustment. There's no way high oil pressure is responsible. I run an old camaro, with a small block, at the local drag stripes. That engine has a high output pump, to intentionally boost the pressure. We pray to see 70 PSI @ 6500rpm's when crossing the finish line. Also, the burnt piston probably happened from lack of lubrication. The connectig rods have a pin hole, at the seem, where the rod cap bolts on. This is so oil can squirt the cylinder walls of the opposing bank of cylinders at the underside of the pistons, so the piston skirts have an oil file to slide down on, and the oil ring, just above the skirt, wipes the oil off. Chances are your mechanic had one rod and piston assembly, turned 180 degrees, so now that pin hole is squirting oil at the pan rail, right back into the crankcase. If my hunches are correct, maybe you should seek a new mechanic.
Well, Here is the latest version, my mechanic called and said he's figured out the problem, now he's telling me I must have bought the 2nd engine from "First Mate Engines" with the wrong cam installed. He used that cam from the 2nd engine when he built the 3rd engine, and now he figured out it's the wrong rotation and thats why both engines had no power, the backfiring through the carb at 3500 rpm, and the problems with this engine. He's ordered a new cam, should have it on Tuesday. Does that make more sense then the oil pressure being to high? And replacing the coil stopped the backfiring but still had no power before it blew.
Thanks again,
Rusty
Thanks again,
Rusty
F32 Engine Problems
I replaced the Prestolite(point/condenser) distributors on my Merc 233's with Prestolite electronic distributors and I couldn't over 2000 RPM without bogging neutral!! The centrifugal advance springs looked like they were off a shock absorber. I played around with lighter springs, weights and slot length and I was able to match the original advance curve and now the boat runs fine. Prestolite couldn't explain why the advance curve was changed.
Good afternoon,
Sorry I haven't got back sooner, but we have been very busy since the hurricanes, the mechanic I was using changed the cam, replaced the two pistons and valves, test ran it ashore, reinstalled the engine, I tested the engine and this time I could not get past 2500 rpm and the engine sounded like every internal part was ratteling, so I backed it down, came back to the dock and have not touched it again until this morning, I met with another mechanic to schedule a time for him to sea trial and get his advice. the other mechanic has moved to Tenn. and I have not been able to contact him.
When running the engine at the dock the engine sounds great.
Seems like I have changed everything except the the fuel pump, transmission, and flame arrestor. But I know there has to be somthing simple causing all these problems that I'm overlooking.
Rusty
another thought I was concidering was changing the engines out for the GM 6.2 non turbo diesel, not sure if there is enough horsepower with out the turbo.
Sorry I haven't got back sooner, but we have been very busy since the hurricanes, the mechanic I was using changed the cam, replaced the two pistons and valves, test ran it ashore, reinstalled the engine, I tested the engine and this time I could not get past 2500 rpm and the engine sounded like every internal part was ratteling, so I backed it down, came back to the dock and have not touched it again until this morning, I met with another mechanic to schedule a time for him to sea trial and get his advice. the other mechanic has moved to Tenn. and I have not been able to contact him.
When running the engine at the dock the engine sounds great.
Seems like I have changed everything except the the fuel pump, transmission, and flame arrestor. But I know there has to be somthing simple causing all these problems that I'm overlooking.
Rusty
another thought I was concidering was changing the engines out for the GM 6.2 non turbo diesel, not sure if there is enough horsepower with out the turbo.