Answering a question about a Carver 370/390

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todd brinkerhoff
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Answering a question about a Carver 370/390

Post by todd brinkerhoff » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:18 pm

A woman messaged me a question about my opinion about the Carver 370/390. She was ready to buy, but then found this forum and was concerned about the negative press on this forum toward Carver.

This is her question:

Hi Todd:
It looks like you're the Moderator on the site here - and so glad that I found it! My husband and I have been searching for a cruiser and believe we've found the one we like....and then I found this site! I'm sure you're inundated with questions re: Trojan vessels, so I apologize upfront, and please feel free to point us back to our Surveyor for questions. But seeing this is our FIRST power boat purchase we were really hoping to get some opinion on the boat, and the comments re: Trojan's made (under Carver) post 1992, scare the hell out of us. There's a 370/390 Express (in Westbrook, CT) for sale - asking $84k. She was completely gutted and refitted. Pristine inside. We have ordered a survey and the owner is certain all will come back satisfactory. So my question is why so much distaste (that I'm reading) for the Carver built boat? The Agent informed us the only issue is we might have trouble selling her again due to a lack of comps. She's super unique and we love her - certainly over a Sundancer or Cruisers which was the other lines in this style we were looking at. Thank you for ANY insight into this boat?! Karen


This was my comment. Please add anything you think would be appropriate:

Hi Karen,

First off, I am not the Trojan Forum moderator, however, I am interested in knowing how you got my name, because I am one of the few people on the forum that know a little background on the Carver's Trojan Models. I currently own the precursor to the boat you are looking at. The background is a little lengthy, so if you have questions, feel free to call me. The negative press on the Trojan forum is a little warranted, and a little not warranted. Long story short, Trojan had been around for a long time, even back to the wooden boat era. In the early 80s, they came out with a new line called the International, with its flagship, the 10 Meter. This boat is essentially the basis of where all express cruisers tried to be. It was a large boat with incredible sea keeping abilities. It had a delta conic hull, which would become reknowned, created by Harry Schoell. This boat was so successful, the Trojan came out with a 11, 12, 13, and eventually 14 Meter boat, in both the express and convertible models. In the late 80s the boating industry took a hit with the luxury tax, and started losing money big time. Trojan was having some inroads into the European market, and decided to try to redesign the Trojan International, geared toward the Mediterranean market. They recruited the famous Italian naval architect Fulvio De Simoni, who currently designs all of Persian Yachts. They also knew that they need to put out a good hull, but didn't want to use Schoell. They decided to go with the best hull designers in the world, Bertram, utilizing their lead engineer to design the hull on this new boat. The new boat was named the 10.8 Meter Express. Trojan could not shore the huge amount of outgoing money, and had to file backruptcy. Carver came in a bought up Trojan, and destroyed every design except the new 10.8 meter. Carver modified the 10.8 Meter, including the hull and put out the Carver Trojan 370. I'm not sure why they made modifications, whether it was a contractual deal not to copy the exact design or not. It is very close in layout however.

As far as negative press, this is my opinion. The 35 to 45 foot express cruiser range is a difficult nut. These boats tend to attract the family people, who obviously have a budget. With tier 1 manufacturers, like Hatteras and Bertram, the amount of money it was taking to build these boats far exceeded the amount people wanted to pay for them. People willing to spend a million dollars wanted something bigger than a 40 foot boat, however, these manufacturers were putting as much into these boats as they were their 50 footers, which the big players wanted. So you had companies that put out high quality products either go out of business, like Trojan, or get out of that market altogether, like Hatteras and Bertram. Hatteras doesn't build anything less than 50 foot now, and Bertram exclusively builds high dollar sport fishing boats. However, their now are companies that do build boats in that size, and keep the prices reasonable, such as Sea Ray, Cruisers, Monteray, etc. So you have to ask, how do they build a boat that big and keep the cost down. Quality. Just like some big housing manufacturers. How do some housing manufacturers build huge houses for cheap. They look great, as long as you don't look behind the walls.

As far as the value of the Carver 370/390, the depreciation of the boat is probably maxed. If you like the design and layout, the boat is serving most of its purpose. If you are concering yourself with resale value, you are probably looking for the wrong reason. The boat is probably 20 years old, so if there are major issues, they probably already reared their ugly head. Is the boat gas or diesel? What was refitted? How many hours on the boat. What types of motors? How has the maintenance been maintained? Has the boat ever been severely damaged or crashed? Answers to these questions and a good surveyor mean much more on a 20 year old boat than Trojan vs. Carver. If its a gas boat, I think $84,000 is a little steep. A guy in florida bought a 10.8 Meter diesel for $40,000, and I picked mine up for $30,000, to give you some comparison.

1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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prowlersfish
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Post by prowlersfish » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:48 pm

Caver builds a good boat , not sure what the negitve is coments are other a liltle ribbing here.
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aaronbocknek
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Post by aaronbocknek » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:54 pm

todd, thanks for the history lesson. i really learned something about your style of boat. fascinating.
i'm curious as to why the delta conic was not continued. it's an amazing design.
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Post by Vitaliy » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:33 pm

Thats some good educational reading right there
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todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:44 pm

aaronbocknek wrote:todd, thanks for the history lesson. i really learned something about your style of boat. fascinating.
i'm curious as to why the delta conic was not continued. it's an amazing design.
I'm not positive why the decision was made. I can tell you that I have talked to a few Trojan people and some of the reasons were that they were looking to improve fuel efficiency and there may have been some required royalties to Schoell they wanted to get from underneath. I think the reason for going with bertram was their reputation, they wanted to come up with a completely new design, and there was some convenience of going with Bertram since Bertram and Trojan were under the same holding company.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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Post by 1995 390 express » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:58 pm

just 2 cents here-i'm a first year boater with a 95 390 express. can't compare it to anything since i never drove another boat but it seems to handle great in every situation so far. my dock buds gave me one lesson on leaving the dock and putting her back in a tight squeeze slip and i have been soloing ever since. everyone with a lot of years at the marina think the boat is great. i looked at a few of these for a while before i bought and the price seems a bit high to me also.all were gas jobs but were in the 45000 to 70000 asking price range. i didn t catch what location the woman was in.

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Post by todd brinkerhoff » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:22 am

1995 390 express wrote:just 2 cents here-i'm a first year boater with a 95 390 express. can't compare it to anything since i never drove another boat but it seems to handle great in every situation so far. my dock buds gave me one lesson on leaving the dock and putting her back in a tight squeeze slip and i have been soloing ever since. everyone with a lot of years at the marina think the boat is great. i looked at a few of these for a while before i bought and the price seems a bit high to me also.all were gas jobs but were in the 45000 to 70000 asking price range. i didn t catch what location the woman was in.
I told her that I thought the price was way too high for a 20 year old boat with big iron gas burners. The boat has been completely redone and even looks painted. It claims to have $42,000 in upgrades in the last 15 months. Why put that much in and the sell it unless it was a salvage
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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Post by todd brinkerhoff » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:32 am

Anyone think that this may have been a salvaged boat? Why would you put this much into this boat over 15 months? The bilges look painted and the hull and topsides look painted. Looks like new canvass also. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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Post by todd brinkerhoff » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:39 am

1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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Post by summer storm » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:55 pm

Todd,

Do you know which post she is talking about? (re: Trojan's made (under Carver) post 1992, scare the hell out of us.) Carvers are a fine boats and if we joke around about them we should keep in mind that our posts show up in search engines.

salvaged boat? I'm not sure about that one but 42K would be easy to spend on new engines, canvas, paint , and new soft goods. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying it adds 42K to the value of the boat.
Doug

1977 F-32
1982 Chris Craft 280
1992 Boston Whaler 13 Super Sport Limited
1974 F-25 (Sold)
1979 F-26 (sold)

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todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:05 pm

summer storm wrote:Todd,

Do you know which post she is talking about? (re: Trojan's made (under Carver) post 1992, scare the hell out of us.) Carvers are a fine boats and if we joke around about them we should keep in mind that our posts show up in search engines.

salvaged boat? I'm not sure about that one but 42K would be easy to spend on new engines, canvas, paint , and new soft goods. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying it adds 42K to the value of the boat.
She said that she met the owners. They bought the boat 15 months ago with intentions of flipping the boat. This is their fourth boat they've flipped. Apparently this is their interest.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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Post by prowlersfish » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:46 pm

todd brinkerhoff wrote:Anyone think that this may have been a salvaged boat? Why would you put this much into this boat over 15 months? The bilges look painted and the hull and topsides look painted. Looks like new canvass also. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.

Could be BS too . I remember When Willy sold his Trojan , the guy who bought it bought it to flip . He posted a ad and claimed he just put a ton of money and work it and he had own for a few years and wanted to move up , this was right after bought it , he had it way over priced too .
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Post by jhalb » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:18 pm

I don't know about the price but this is a cool boat!
John
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MattSC
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Post by MattSC » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:00 pm

It's offered by Brewer's, and from the photo's it's at Pilots Point Marina in westbrook CT. This is the yard that did my repower/engine stringer replacement back in 2002. It's a first class facility, if most of the work was done by the yard, I can speak from experience with them that everything was done right. A bit pricey, but very good attention to detail. The list with prices in the add looks familiar as well, almost looks like it was taken from a Brewer's yard bill. That could explain the high price. Nice looking boat though, the question I have is with one of the photos showing the back of the engine where the drive shaft mates to the V-Drive, photo's 59 & 60. The tranny looks blue engines are black Mercruisers. Isn't Crusader blue? Was it originally like that?

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prowlersfish
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Post by prowlersfish » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:14 pm

Looks like cusader blue on the V drive , you would think they would match the color with the engine but you never know , and it could have been a repower too .
TROJAN F36 Conv.
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Life is to short for a ugly boat :D
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