Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

This forum is for comments and the exchange of information relating to Trojan Boats and boating. Please do not post used parts or boats For Sale in this area. For general, non-boating topics please use our "General Discussions" section.

Note: Negative or inflammatory postings will not be tolerated.

Moderators: BeaconMarineBob, Moderator, BeaconMarineDon

User avatar
BarryL
Sporadic User
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:53 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by BarryL » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:37 pm

Hi guys,

I have a 1990 10 Meter mid cabin and the port motor is giving me grief every now and then. Here is the situation-

Boat sat unused in 85 degree weather for a week and when I went to go out the port motor would not start. I didn't have a second set of hands so I couldn't check for spark so I thought I would try and eliminate a fuel problem.

The First thing I did was switch the fuel source to the starboard tank. Still no start even after extended cranking so I switched it back to the starboard tank.

The second thing I tried was pouring about 3-4 ounces straight into the carb and then giving it a crank and wouldn't you know it fired right up and ran fine the whole day. I used the boat three or four times since then and it started and ran great every time until today.

This morning I tried to start it and again to get it to kick I had to force feed a few ounces of fuel directly into the carb..

My mechanic friend thinks that maybe the fuel lines are starting to de-laminate and that I am sucking air when trying to start the engine or maybe I have a weak fuel pump and once the engine gets to idle speed the pump can take it from there and mask the problem or that once it is running it masks a de-laminated line problem. No smell of gas in the bilge and once you get it started it will run all day without a problem.

My guess is that after sitting a few days or a week in the hot sun the gas evaporates from the carb and either the pump cant develop enough vacuum at cranking speed to draw fuel or maybe he is right about de-laminated line. If it were a de-laminated line why didn't it start when I tried to run it off of the other tank?

any suggestions or historical experience would be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance,

Barry
I love my boat! It takes all of my money and doesn't bitch.

User avatar
gitchisum
Moderate User
Posts: 225
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 1:06 am
Location: Kewaunee, WI

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by gitchisum » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:27 pm

You may want to start with carbs. I had a similar issue on my Stbd 350 and it has been fine since I rebuilt the carbs. I would bet you can get fuel flowing if you tap the bowl, which likely loosens when you put fuel in carb. Could be the others also. Good luck
88 321 Sedan 270 crusaders
2001 Seadoo Challenger 2000
97 Lowe Roughneck 17TC
1948 Alumacraft K14, Evinrude twin 6hp " Still kickin"

Scorpion07
Registered user
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:08 pm

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by Scorpion07 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:43 pm

As far as delaminating fuel lines, I would think it would be more likely to starve the carb for fuel at higher rpms if it were the case. Since the vacuum would be greater.

I bet the most likely candidates are:
* A stuck open anti-reversionary valve at the fuel tank.
* A stuck float valve. most likely!
* A bad fuel pump. But doubt this one since it would show up under higher rpms as well.

User avatar
captainmaniac
2019 Gold Support
2019 Gold Support
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:26 pm
Location: Burlington, Ontario

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by captainmaniac » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:27 pm

Two other thoughts...

Cracked (rubber) fuel line. Had a problem with my generator a few years ago that the line was deteriorated and cracked near the fuel pump. Fuel had drained from the bad section to the pump, and when the pump ran when trying to crank the cracks let enough air in that the fuel pump was just sucking air. Goosing things a bit with fuel in the carb, the genny started and ran fast enough to force the fuel pump to suck more than the crack airflow could provide, so sucked enough fuel through the lines to keep running. Until things shut down, and line slowly drained again.

Vapour lock (somehow). The sun may be baking something more than you expect, and causing a vapour lock issue. Haven't experienced that directly, but by way of analogy I have seen problems with my fuel tanks randomly deciding to vent fuel down the side of the hull ... With topped off tanks, I have seen days with strong sun shining on my aft deck (tanks below) where the related heat caused air in the tanks to expand and dump raw fuel out the vents. Maybe on warmer days the air temp and sun induced heating of some part of your fuel system is causing you issue. Now, if the sun shines on your Stbd side (instead of port) - you can probably cross this off the list!

User avatar
WayWeGo
2019 Gold Support
2019 Gold Support
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:13 am
Location: Oakton, VA / Rhode River - Chesapeake Bay

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by WayWeGo » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:42 pm

I would take a look at the accelerator pump on the carb, especially if it is a Rochester and you are running E10.
1975 F-36 Convertible
Twin Chrysler 440's

User avatar
Paul
Active User
Posts: 1141
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:02 pm
Location: Windsor Ont.

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by Paul » Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:09 am

WayWeGo wrote:I would take a look at the accelerator pump on the carb, especially if it is a Rochester and you are running E10.
+1
Paul
"Cruise Control" 1978 F-26HT
"No Control" 2012 9' Grand RIB

User avatar
Stripermann2
Ultimate User
Posts: 3026
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Colonial Beach, VA- The Play Ground on The Potomac

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by Stripermann2 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:57 am

The Rochester Quadra-jet has an inherent problem with the fuel bowl well plugs leaking.
They will leak fuel from these plugs and into the manifold. This causes excessive priming to get the engines fired back up again.
The cure for this is to remove carburetor base, invert and JB Weld these plugs to keep the from leaking. Have fixed many carbs for this issue. Happy Boating!

Image
Jamie


1985 F-32 270 Crusaders
1988 Sea Ray 23 350 Merc.
Trojan. Enjoy the ride...

-I don't wanna hear anyone whine...Anymore!
-You might get there before me, but you still have to wait for me, for the fun to start!

User avatar
kevinz
Registered user
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:24 pm
Location: Pensacola, FL.

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by kevinz » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:51 am

Don't know if your engine is a 454xl or not. But my 454xl had the same problem and it was the oil pressure switch (Crusader part # 98220) that controls the fuel pump on start up.
-1995 350 express
with big blues (454 Crusaders)
-2011 Caroling Skiff J-14 (Tohatsu 30hp four stroke)
-1996 Sea Ray SeaRayder jet (Merc 90hp)
-1990 BeachCat 20. Fiberglass pontoon (2013 Merc 60hp big foot)

User avatar
Stripermann2
Ultimate User
Posts: 3026
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Colonial Beach, VA- The Play Ground on The Potomac

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by Stripermann2 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:56 am

kevinz wrote:Don't know if your engine is a 454xl or not. But my 454xl had the same problem and it was the oil pressure switch (Crusader part # 98220) that controls the fuel pump on start up.
The XLs are throttle body injected-no carbs.
Jamie


1985 F-32 270 Crusaders
1988 Sea Ray 23 350 Merc.
Trojan. Enjoy the ride...

-I don't wanna hear anyone whine...Anymore!
-You might get there before me, but you still have to wait for me, for the fun to start!

User avatar
kevinz
Registered user
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:24 pm
Location: Pensacola, FL.

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by kevinz » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:34 am

the XLi's are injected. the XL's are carbs.
-1995 350 express
with big blues (454 Crusaders)
-2011 Caroling Skiff J-14 (Tohatsu 30hp four stroke)
-1996 Sea Ray SeaRayder jet (Merc 90hp)
-1990 BeachCat 20. Fiberglass pontoon (2013 Merc 60hp big foot)

User avatar
Stripermann2
Ultimate User
Posts: 3026
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Colonial Beach, VA- The Play Ground on The Potomac

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by Stripermann2 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:19 pm

I see, yes you are correct. The XLi's are throttle body. Thanks for the clarification.
Jamie


1985 F-32 270 Crusaders
1988 Sea Ray 23 350 Merc.
Trojan. Enjoy the ride...

-I don't wanna hear anyone whine...Anymore!
-You might get there before me, but you still have to wait for me, for the fun to start!

User avatar
Landlocked
Registered user
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Independence, KS

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by Landlocked » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:33 pm

I rebuilt my quadrajets this past winter. The rubber skirts were totally broken off of each accelerator pump. Even though I am supposedly getting only ethanol free fuel I have to suspect the E10. Regardless, no accelerator pump makes a cold start much more difficult.
Lake boaters skip the salt...
1985 11 Meter Sedan
1972 Newman Bassboat
1990 Cyclone Jetboat
1957 Fiberglass Barracuda (Olds 425 cubic Inch, Edelbrock)

larryeddington
2019 Forum Supporter
2019 Forum Supporter
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:08 pm
Location: Canton, TX Boat on TEXOMA

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by larryeddington » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:08 am

when and if you purchase a carby kit for the Quadrajet make sure the needle and seat valve is a traditional style with rubber tip. I installed a kit in each of mine and the kit touted a new and updated version of the valve. The valve was in one assembly with a plunger on the top of it that was actuated by the float and some material that would be pushed down internally over the fuel delivery and shut it off. At the end of the day it would stick closed. Had a heck of a time getting it sorted out. Would have took photo but did not think of it and gone in trash.

Bought two kits at NAPA, both different and not for my carby but had the same and correct needle and seat valve. Installed valve, set float and both engines purring perfect. Tried and true style is best! :D
Larry Eddington
1984 F-36 Tri Cabin "The Phoenix II"
1978 F-28 "The Phoenix"
Fish Master 2350 Bay Boat
9.5' Dink

User avatar
BarryL
Sporadic User
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:53 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by BarryL » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:54 pm

update on failure reason.

Ok guys the problem finally reared its ugly head in a way that showed me the way to a resolution.

Initially the port motor required a prime every now and then to wake it up. I received plenty of good suggestions but was hoping to make it to winter storage and figure it out while the boat was out of the water but that wasn't meant to be. (Shame on me for tempting the boat gods)

To isolate the problem when it was still intermittent I was running both engines off of the starboard tank to eliminate the port anti siphon valve, fuel pick up tube, and all of the rigid fuel lines between the tank and fuel manifold. The port motor seemed to behave until this past sunday when it died while I was getting up on plane. Not wanting to crawl into the bilge the plan was to limp home on the starboard engine. That plan failed when 5 minutes later the starboard engine failed and forced me to drop anchor in a hurry and asses the situation. Now it seemed both engines were starving for fuel. A friend was nearby and he towed me to a safe harbor about 2 miles away. Now it is Sunday at 7pm. I sent my local marine mechanic a message describing the symptoms and asked if he could get me in line for a quick look as soon as possible. (expecting a response in a day or two) He actually showed up 20 minutes later and within minutes confirmed that it was indeed the port motor fuel pump that caused that engine to stop. We decided to leave the boat for the night and return in the morning. Being an engineer I couldn't stop analyzing how both fuel pumps could have failed within such a short amount of time. Then a theory came into my head... Both the port and starboard motors were sipping fuel from the same tank was the only variable I had changed since the problem first showed up as an intermittent a few weeks ago. It was then that I thought about the path of least resistance. Could the port motor fuel pump be allowing air into the now common fuel supply system? When we removed the port fuel pump it became obvious that the pump was allowing air into the system. To test the theory we shut the port motor fuel supply shutoff valve. 10 seconds of cranking had the starboard motor back up and running as it always had.

Moral of the story- Replace worn or weak parts before them turn into dead parts and a drifting boat in 20 mph winds, Follow your intuition and be open to all theories, and in the end have a great mechanic that responds on a Sunday night to diagnose and then returns first thing in the morning to a remote site with new pump in hand and has you back up in running within an hour. The total bill for both trips to the boat and the fuel pump was $200.00 an unbelievable low price. For the record I now have two replacement pumps on order and they will be replaced in the spring and I'll hold onto the port pump for an emergency spare.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions.

Barry
I love my boat! It takes all of my money and doesn't bitch.

dakotamusic12
Registered user
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:34 pm

Re: Dangerous Testing Technique::Crusader 454 needs priming to get it started

Post by dakotamusic12 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:18 pm

Both my crusaders had this same problem. After sittting on the hard winterized there was no fuel in the carbs. I cranked and cranked to no avail. After much searching here and other boating forums the one common simple test was to pour a few ounces of fuel directly into the throat of the carb and crank over. If she starts even for a second you eliminate the ignition and at least puts one more on track to seek out a fuel issue. Fuel filters, fuel pumps etc.
So I run to auto parts and purchase a remote start trigger since cranking from the flybridge (10 meter sedan) isn't helpful while trying to diagnose this type of problem.
I started on my starboard side, removed flame arrestor, hooked up the remote starter to the starter and flipped the ignition shut off inside at the panel. Flybridge ignition was already on and its closer to flip the inside switch rather than run up the ladder. All set......before cranking over with fuel poured into the carb ,I decided to give it a couple of cranks on its own, to see if fuel would make it up to carb and start. No Joy! So armed with a small cup half full of gas I pour in maybe 2-3 ounces I guess. Crank over and the engine trys to start. Spits back thru carb and no run. Give it another few ounces to see if I can get her to run more than 1 second. Crank again and the engine hits, fires ,and then a huge spit back up the carb.
Fire shoots straight up onto my gloved hand, an arc of fire shoots out the cabin door and also forward into the center of the bilge.Im guessing my hand acted like a deflector rather than straight up, the fuel shot different directions due to my hand. There was literally fire everywhere around me as I was kneeling on top of the battery box between the engines. I was still holding the cup of fuel which is totally in flames, top of engine is on fire, a towel I had laying over the bilge/ holding tank is engulfed, air conditioner compressor is in flames.
I quickly grab the flaming towel and head out to the cockpit to throw overboard. The cockpit rug is in flames directly outside the door.
Grab a fire extinguisher to put out the fire in the engine room...while doing so I notice the port rear quarter window curtain is also in flames. I ripped it out and toss it overboard, reenter the main salon, extinguish the engine room big fire, and top of engine fire. Upon walking outside I stamp out the cockpit rug fire and realize my jeans are now on fire as well as my left fleece coat sleeve. I'm now on FIRE!!
Get myself put out and peel the burnt sleeve off my wrist and back of hand.

Moral of this story?.....pouring fuel directly into a carb is extermely dangerous!! While it certainly proofed my problem, the result could have been catastrophic had I not kept a level head and reacted quickly. The fire spread so quickly I imagine had I reacted 10 seconds slower the entire boat would have went up.

I have been working on automobiles for 35+ years and boats for 20+. I have seen blow back on carb in boats and cars many times but nothing to this degree. My only idea as to why is that I poured way too much fuel than thought and/ or fuel made its way up to the carb at the same time.

There are 20 other ways to diagnose things and sometimes taking the quick easy route can have real severe outcomes. While the practice of pouring a little fuel down the carb is commonly done, please reconsider, based on my experience.

Everything is okay.......boat is cleaned up and minus a coat, rug and part of the curtains all is well. Except for the 2nd degree burn on the back of my hand and wrist I will survive and hopefully my expereince saves someone from having the same result.

So please do not pour fuel down into a carb thinking you will just get a few seconds run time.

BTW, I was able to get both motors running. Im assuming I had the typical run down of fuel over the winter season and needed to reprime the fuel system on each side. Once fuel was there motors fired no issue.

Be Safe!
Dakota

Post Reply