Teleflex Syten to SeaStar upgrade

[captainmaniac]

I know there have been posts over the years about people upgrading or thinking of upgrading their steering system, but don't think I have seen any that go into real 'experiences' about approach, problems, tips, or actual effort / time required.

Think I am going to bit the bullet this winter and update my steering (TIBS is only a couple of weeks away so will be looking for boat show deals for components if possible), but debating about doing the work myself vs hiring my 'usual guy' (depends on how big or finicky of a job), and leaving all hoses intact and reusing them vs running all new lines.

I know ScurvyDog did the upgrade himself 3-4 years back, but posts didn't share much about the experience. Scurvy or anyone else -- anything insights you can share?

[AwayOnBusine$$]

Captain, Not sure is yours is 32/36 or the year. Mine is a 76 F32 and I am wondering what is the benefit.

[oil&water]

Captain, I had the SeaStar in my Chris-Craft 32 and maintained it myself, including rebuild. I installed a few back in the day as well. The hardest part of the job is getting the hoses in place and getting the proper mounting pad in place for the hydraulic rudder ram. After the ram is mounted properly, bleeding the lines will take some time as well. As long as you or someone on your crew doesn't mind being in tight places (rear deck bilge) for a few hours while bleeding, scraping up your body while fishing the hoses, etc. you will be just fine installing it.

Be sure to seal all of your lines when pulling them to keep debris out of the system.

[captainmaniac]

Captain, Not sure is yours is 32/36 or the year. Mine is a 76 F32 and I am wondering what is the benefit.

Boat is a '79 F32. The 'benefit' is a reliability / trust thing. I need to be able to trust my life, and the lives of my family and passengers who go aboard, to the boat and my ability to operate it. If I lose steering, that could be life threatening. At 3 knots putting through a marina for docking, maybe not... but in 6-10' following seas on Lake Ontario, if you lose steering you are in serious trouble.

I had visible (but very minor) hydraulic leaks at the cylinder when I bought the boat 17 years ago, so have always had it on my radar. But the pumps or check valves have developed issues over the years, and I am now losing confidence in the steering system. A few examples:

• I used to be about 2.5 - 3 turns lock to lock on both helm stations. Now at the bridge station I can do 5-7 turns lock to lock, and it is not consistent.

• When I turn the wheel at one station, the other one turns (it should not).

• On a voyage with strong cross wind, I usually need to keep turning the wheel into the wind to keep the boat going straight (ie 30 mile / 1.5 - 2 hour run, I have to turn the wheel a full 1.5 - 2 tuns into the wind to stay straight - check valves are letting hydraulic fluid leak back and rudder straightens out instead of continuing to crab into the wind).

Unfortunately there are a crap load of people out there who subscribe to the philosophy of "What could possibly go wrong?" (not going to mention our old buddy Jeff!) I am not one of them. I know what could go wrong, and want to make sure it doesn't.

[Barrie]

Hi Captain, my Tri fly has of course the chain and rod system. Would it be a big job to change it over to the teleflex.....or even possible.
If even possible I would not likely tackle it till next winter.

Hey I'm going to the Toronto show as well! Looking for a vacuflush system for the boat.

[AwayOnBusine$$]

Captain, Thanks for the insight!

[prowlersfish]

Captain, Not sure is yours is 32/36 or the year. Mine is a 76 F32 and I am wondering what is the benefit.

Boat is a '79 F32. The 'benefit' is a reliability / trust thing. I need to be able to trust my life, and the lives of my family and passengers who go aboard, to the boat and my ability to operate it. If I lose steering, that could be life threatening. At 3 knots putting through a marina for docking, maybe not... but in 6-10' following seas on Lake Ontario, if you lose steering you are in serious trouble.

I had visible (but very minor) hydraulic leaks at the cylinder when I bought the boat 17 years ago, so have always had it on my radar. But the pumps or check valves have developed issues over the years, and I am now losing confidence in the steering system. A few examples:

• I used to be about 2.5 - 3 turns lock to lock on both helm stations. Now at the bridge station I can do 5-7 turns lock to lock, and it is not consistent.

• When I turn the wheel at one station, the other one turns (it should not).

• On a voyage with strong cross wind, I usually need to keep turning the wheel into the wind to keep the boat going straight (ie 30 mile / 1.5 - 2 hour run, I have to turn the wheel a full 1.5 - 2 tuns into the wind to stay straight - check valves are letting hydraulic fluid leak back and rudder straightens out instead of continuing to crab into the wind).

Unfortunately there are a crap load of people out there who subscribe to the philosophy of "What could possibly go wrong?" (not going to mention our old buddy Jeff!) I am not one of them. I know what could go wrong, and want to make sure it doesn't.

You seem to have multiple issues and some strange ones too .And they need to be addressed . Upgrading makes some sense . ( vs repairing ) . Your issues with the extra turns and leak back could also be internal leakage in the cylinder . as far as the other wheel turning , that's a strange one . Maybe the check valve .

Hi Captain, my Tri fly has of course the chain and rod system. Would it be a big job to change it over to the teleflex.....or even possible.
If even possible I would not likely tackle it till next winter.

Hey I'm going to the Toronto show as well! Looking for a vacuflush system for the boat.

It will take you some time But it is very doable .

[Big D]

It's a fairly simple re and re if you're not running lines CM. For your app I think you'd fall into their System #1 category. This category maxes out at 32' though for a twin engine planing hull if I recall so you may want to consider moving up to the System #2 category which is good to 38' for pleasure boats. Same helm I think just upgraded cylinder. The helm will be a Seastar 1.7 HH5271 I believe (1.7 = displacement). For System #1 the cylinder would be BA125-7ATM. If you wanted to upgrade to System #2, the cylinder would be BA135-7ATM if my mind serves me correctly (been a while). This will give you a 4 or 5 turn end to end.

I believe the Seastar 1.7 shaft has a 3/4" standard taper and 5/8" thread (you should confirm this first) so you'll have to compare that with what you currently have. If different, you may need new steering wheels. Maximum wheel diameter is 28". Pretty sure the ports are 1/4" NPT female so check your current hardware. Ensure the vented helm fill plug is at the upper helm and you'll need a non vented one for the lower. The only other thing to consider would be whether you need a front or rear mount helm and whether you want a tilting one or not.

The geometry of the cylinder placement might change a bit if they differ much from your existing one, so placement may have to be adjusted.

Hope that helps. If I think of anything else, I'll chime in.

[mikeandanne]

Heh Cap......cant add much to big D's post but My 78 f32 had the Sea star retro fit when we got the boat.....the heads stuck out more than the originals, on the upper helm I had to fabricate a new higher surround to mount the plexi cover on as the hole for the system at the original height would have been too large.....still had issues that I believe were probably coming from the very small "high speed rudders"LOL, and the original syten ram mount, which you will upgrade ........maybe you don't have to run new lines ????

[Big D]

There are different mounting options as I mentioned in my earlier post. With the Front mount unit, you will see the whole helm. With the Rear mount unit, you won't see the helm at all, just the shaft and the heads of the 4 mounting bolts. The only issue with this is that you must run a permanent filler line to extend the port to the top of the dash above the unit with the plug so you can maintain levels. The hardware is available for this. There is also a Round Bezel Kit that will allow mounting a Front mount helm so that the helm protrudes just enough for the filler port to be exposed. If you currently have a Sytten helm, there is a Back Plate Kit to retrofit the Front mount helm to accommodate the older setup. This kit reduces the helm's protrusion by the thickness of the dash.

There may be some tweaking and more if you want to change the look by the amount of helm shown but it's all doable. Just a reminder that the new helms do not come with fittings anymore, that's why I mentioned that you check what you have so you don't have to drop everything part way through the install to source fittings.

Hydraulic systems are easily prone to and fail because of contamination from either dirt, water or poor quality oil so if you're going to spend this kind of money on two helms, work out what it will cost to run new lines and fittings first. The cost isn't that bad and for what may be a pain labour wise, you'll have a new system free of contamination if you take care when installing. If you currently have copper lines, then I say keep them but purge them of the old fluid and run some new fluid through them, then cap them off right away and don't remove the caps until you're ready to hook that end up (no thread dope or Teflon). Be careful if you decide to change the lines. For a 1.7 helm you can use the their 3/8 extruded nylon tubing but there is a system length restriction. I believe the limit of the total lengths combines (the whole circuit) can't exceed 100' but you can confirm that. For longer circuits, you'd need to use outboard hose kits, have high pressure lengths custom made, or use copper. There is a spec for the type of copper.

[captainmaniac]

Hi Captain, my Tri fly has of course the chain and rod system. Would it be a big job to change it over to the teleflex.....or even possible.
If even possible I would not likely tackle it till next winter.

Hey I'm going to the Toronto show as well! Looking for a vacuflush system for the boat.

It will take you some time But it is very doable .

Agreed. Each helm is actually a hydraulic pump. Base for each helm is maybe 4-5" wide (don't have the measurements in front of me) so you need that space on the dash and ability to cut a 3" inch hole to mount it. A hydraulic ram gets mounted near the rudders and connects to them similarly to how your chain / rod system connects today. Hoses need to be run from the helm(s) back to the ram - that can be the most painful part in a conversion as you may not be able to use the same run as the chain / rod system (want to have the hoses at a bit of an angle if possible - no low spots - or bleeding could be a challenge).

[captainmaniac]

Been tied up for a few days so just catching up. Much thanks to Big D and Mike for the info and comments in the last few posts.

Getting ready for the boat show, today I called the guy I usually hire to do the mechanical work I can't do (or dirty stuff I don't wanna!) to find out if he has replaced hydraulic steering before and see what he would charge me to decide if I would take it on myself or throw it over the fence. I have known him for a LONG time (we used to be rugrats running around the docks on weekends when our parents had boats at the same marina), and he has been in business for probably 30+ years...

Turns out he is a Teleflex / SeaStar dealer! Who knew?

So.... after a very good and informative conversation with him, hoping to get to the boat this weekend to collect my existing part numbers for helm pumps and ram, and he will follow up with Teleflex re what needs to be replaced given what I have installed and the symptoms I am experiencing. His thinking is that I may just need a new ram - says pumps are rarely the problem with what I am seeing - so we may try swapping that first, and if it still gives me trouble then do the helms too if needed after launch. If there are still problems after that, we will worry about the hoses.

So... looks like I don't need to nail down a Teleflex SeaStar dearer and full system pricing at the boat show. One less headache...

Original Telelfex documents in my original manual suggest I have a 'Uniflow Valve' between the helm pumps and the ram, while it looks like current SeaStar systems have the checkvalves etc incorporated into the ram itself, so that could be one difference. Hope to check out the plumbing tomorrow.

If I need to do the helms I will probably go with the System #2 configuration (just my thing - overbuild, don't underbuild). Hoping I don't need to swap to new helms, or if I do that the shaft tapers are the same as what I have now -- my flybridge wheel is original (as far as I know), but at the lower station I swapped out the wheel it had when bought the boat for the wheel that came off my father's 1969 28' Sea Skiff, and have a custom made / turned aluminum adapter / hub as the Syten taper did not match the old wheel... Don't want to have to get another custom piece turned! When you say 3/4" standard taper - is that 1" down to 3/4? Or 3/4 down to 11/16?

I will leave it to Gord to verify and resolve any hardware / fittings requirements with Teleflex as needed.

if it turns out replacing ram and helms still don't fix the problem, I will go on to lines (which labour wise will probably be 2-3x the cost of the other work, even though parts are cheapest... ) But if original system is drained and refilled, I would think any (or at least 90% plus of) contamination should be flushed.?.?.?.?

Not going to worry about special mounts for the helms. I have surface (front? based on Big Ds description) mount setup now at both helms where the base sticks out several inches with shaft on the end, and that works fine for me. I am trying to keep the boat as original as possible (I upgrade for safety as appropriate (VHF, depth sounder, flares, life jackets, GPS, blowers, bimini (old aluminum frame was going to rip off and kill someone, and would have in 2015 if I hadn't replaced it before a storm with 60MPH winds hit us when bimini was up...) compass, cracked windshield, and now steering), but otherwise original where I can). I just lean towards original / classic fittings and designs. Prefer the '79 to the mid 80's boats we looked at. Loved Dad's '69. Love my friend's mid '50's 34' Chris Craft. And a card carrying member of the ACBS (anyone want to unload a Greavette Streamliner - especially the barrel back version - for a couple hundred bucks - give me a call!!!!)

Ok... now I am rambling... It's late and I am dealing with the psychological impacts of Trump taking power in 7 days!!!! I need drinks, or bed.

Re Mike's comment about the head sticking out more than the originals -- will see if I need to go there and adjust or replace the plexi cover over the bridge helm if needed.

I won't be chasing down components for this at the boat show after all, but will try to update this thread with what happens going forward, in case it can help someone else. Will let you know what component(s) I replace, cost, and whether or not it addresses the problems.

[Barrie]

Hi Captain, my Tri fly has of course the chain and rod system. Would it be a big job to change it over to the teleflex.....or even possible.
If even possible I would not likely tackle it till next winter.

Hey I'm going to the Toronto show as well! Looking for a vacuflush system for the boat.

It will take you some time But it is very doable .

Agreed. Each helm is actually a hydraulic pump. Base for each helm is maybe 4-5" wide (don't have the measurements in front of me) so you need that space on the dash and ability to cut a 3" inch hole to mount it. A hydraulic ram gets mounted near the rudders and connects to them similarly to how your chain / rod system connects today. Hoses need to be run from the helm(s) back to the ram - that can be the most painful part in a conversion as you may not be able to use the same run as the chain / rod system (want to have the hoses at a bit of an angle if possible - no low spots - or bleeding could be a challenge).

Thanks for that captain, I would love to make the conversion and get rid of the chain, rods and the chrome tube that covers the shaft in the salon. Maybe also delete the lower helm, I hear they are rarely used and often removed.

Thanks again.

[prowlersfish]

Thanks for that captain, I would love to make the conversion and get rid of the chain, rods and the chrome tube that covers the shaft in the salon. Maybe also delete the lower helm, I hear they are rarely used and often removed.

Thanks again.

My thoughts on the lower helm . Only used my once to run the boat and did not like it . A big TV or a Bar would look better and get more use . I have no issues with changing things ( like cutting hole in the transom ) But yet the lower helm is still there . Why ? Two reasons . One its nice to have to run the engines when working on them ( mine are in the salon ) or just running them when its too nasty to go out . If I ever remove it , I would have switches and gauges in the engine room . Second and IMO a biggie . Resale , Most of the buyers want them . A lot will never use it after finding out how great the fly bridge is but at the time they thing they need it . Others will use it once in while . And some will never use the Fly bridge .

[Big D]

CM, it's pretty rare to have to actually replace a helm unless a major failure occurs or it's an older unit that can't be rebuilt. Usually a rebuild kit and a good cleaning solves helm issues. Besides the usual shaft seal leaks, a sticking/lazy shuttle/spool valve is pretty common and can cause intermittent issues and some pretty strange symptoms in dual helm applications.