so way are you a greenie

alexander38 · Post by **alexander38** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:48 am

go lets see how long we have can have a nice debate...pro and con. and none of that cut and paste stuff that'll bore the hell out of everyone...

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:51 am

I just wanted to copy and paste

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:13 pm

I am in favor of less emissions , Todays engines run much cleaner and better and its great . but things like hybrids and diesel electric or gas/electric , are more hype then anything . May make you feel good but really dose nothing to help .

I would love to upgrade to electronic diesels , but can't afford too . But I dam sure would not put diesel electric in my boat even if I was rich and it was free . its a joke for boats and cars . that may change but where not there yet .maybe some day but not yet .

What is good for trains may not work for boats or cars

The bad thing is they want to cram it down your throats where it works or not . and then when its proven to not work and even make things worse . your stuck with it .

E10 is prof of this

Commissionpoint · Post by **Commissionpoint** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:45 pm

Ok Tony now I have a little time to pontificate on the whole green movement.

First let me say I live in the Adirondacks and went to college at an environmental science, natural resources and forestry school, so I am very up on all the environmental topics that are so hot these days. Its all around me all of the time and when I am not working my regular job I am a professional wilderness guide and do a lot of that for hire. I am an avid hiker and backpacker and am currently working on my Winter 46er round am planning a NPT thru hike for May. (See here for more info on what that all that jargon means: http://www.adk46r.org/ and http://www.nptrail.org/) So I have a deep appreciation for the environment and don't want to see it get trashed any more than it has been already. In fact it would be nice if we can do what we can to clean up a few of our accidents and stupid mistakes that we have had over the years, and all the while trying not make the same mistakes again.

All that being said I don't normally come down on the side that agrees with 'environmentalists'. I think thats a term that gets bandied about these days as something thats in style and if you do it you are cool, so you get a whole bunch of hangers on who don't even really know what they are doing or why they are doing it just that they are supposedly cool for doing it. Real environmentalists are Wildlife Biologists, Natural Resource Managers, Forest Technicians, Environmental Conservation Officers, Rangers and the like. Everone else is a lay person with a vested interest in keeping things on the planet going in a manner which will allow humans to keep inhabiting it. Thats where it all goes wrong. Some people just don't care. Some people are such zealots they can't meaningfully contribute. The rest of us have the task of wading through misinformation, politics, and social pressures to do whats right. Thats not always an easy task.

We were talking earlier about lithium and cadmium batteries. NiCads are illegal for consumer goods in Europe now. Not a bad move on thier part because all these little bits of cadmium getting tossed in the trash is really dangerous. Even though the battery makers says on the label to dispose of properly, to most people that means toss it in the trash and get a new one. Cadmium poisoning is some nasty business. Its known as the cadmium blues for a good reason and is often fatal. Lithium is perhaps even worse. Its a neurotoxin and it will destroy your nervous system if it doesn't send you into kidney failure first. So building someething with these and calling it green is just crazy. Its way worse than using a wet cell, 97% of which we already recycle 97% of!!!

Anyhow, I'll let someone else get a word or two in here also. I say to you all don't listen to all the crap you hear about whats good for the environment, usually its some idiot who doesn't know what the hell they are talking about or some company looking to sell something. Do your own homework. Just like anything else.

alexander38 · Post by **alexander38** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:43 am

all good points, but it's the hard core nut jobs out there that get me...let's look at this..
greenies want battery powered cars, but yet don't want the power plants put in place to charge them, it's those kind of things
right-wingers want to destroy the habitat of the earth and kill all the animals but who started Ducks Unlimited answer gun toting hunters.
it's the foolish way the money is wasted and time spent by them with no real results in 30 yrs.

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:22 am

I've learned that it's futile trying to convince one way or the other those on both sides of the fence that certain facts are right before their eyes and that all they have to do is be open minded. What is clear, is that we all want stuff. Some of that stuff is made with dangerous material. Money would best be spent educating the masses on proper handling and disposal so that it becomes second nature just like some other campaigns of the past. There will always be extremists on both sides of any issue, and their views must be taken with a grain of salt. I for one am glad there is a green movement. Though I don't agree with everything the green side preaches, a lot is just common sence, and the movement helps keep some things in check. It also promotes forward thinking for new technologies which we can all benefit from. Our job as consumers, is to weed through the so called green products that disguise hazardous materials, and be aware that if we want this stuff, their use comes with certain resposibilies and an environmental price. We can't always have our cake and eat it too.

I for one like the hybrid "IDEA". Having said that, current battery technology is no where near efficient yet or safe. The technology that's incoporated in these vehicles though is amazing; just the power transfer technology alone is an amazing piece of hardware that makes it all possible in bringing each power plant on line at just the right time. These and other technologies may never have been given the time of day were it not for the environmental dialog. So today, the hybrid, tomorrow, the Flux Capacitor?

alexander38 · Post by **alexander38** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:04 pm

the tech info that has been used it some hybrid cars is a good thing..but the cars for the most are not ready for prime time due to the battery. I feel hydrogen is a fuel we should be workin' on. Such as a way to add a smell to it without destroying it. just a thought...and how bout more nuc's plants ?

Commissionpoint · Post by **Commissionpoint** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:45 pm

alexander38 wrote:the tech info that has been used it some hybrid cars is a good thing..but the cars for the most are not ready for prime time due to the battery. I feel hydrogen is a fuel we should be workin' on. Such as a way to add a smell to it without destroying it. just a thought...and how bout more nuc's plants ?

I have a buddy over near Boston who bought a Prius when they first came out. He just got rid of it and bought a Civic. It was going to be 5 grand to replace the batteries. He said Bulls**t! Then he went out and got the Civic. I had the oppertunity to drive it a few times, and at least around here in the mountains, the gas engine ran most of the time unless you were parking or going at real slow speeds. When the engine was under load like climbing a hill or at higher speeds it would wind away at high revs and burn the amount of gas any other car with a 1.6 in it would. It also sounded a bit like an ungoverned lawnmower engine. All in all I was very unimpressed, and frankly, a little embarrassed to drive it. The Chevy Volt on the other hand is like some kind of practical joke. 40+ grand and you can only go about 25 miles before it craps out and needs recharging. I can't even get to the grocery store and back in 25 miles.

I think hydrogen is the way to go. The problem adding a smell is H bonds to basically everything, including whatever agent you would use to add a detectable odor. Maybe a sort of sniffer like we use in our bilge compartments would do the trick. Another problem with Hydrogen is its volitility. Tanks would have to be very tough to prevent explosions from impact, and a safe way to refuel would have to be devised so there aren't constant mishaps at refilling stations. Maybe we would have to go to full service only like in New Jersey if we had Hydrogen stations so that only trained personell did the actual filling.

I doubt we will develop more nuke plants. They are just so unpopular even though they produce very clean reliable energy. 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl pretty much made that technology really scary to a lot of folks. Thats some boogie man scare tactics though. In truth we have Indian Point here in NY which produces for downstate. Its been going strong for decades, and if you have ever seen Times Square in Manhattan you will know that they have no shortage of electricity. Its close enough to the city that if it failed millions would be in the path of contamination. Those folks down that way don't seem too concerned about that possibility, and with good reason, its safe reliable energy and they know it.

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:45 pm

No doubt hybrids have a long way to go, I wouldn't be getting one now for reasons mentioned but it's a first step. Heck if it weren't for certain needs and wants, we'd still be in horse and buggy. How well and fast emerging technologies progress depends on demand and creativity/imagination driven by the thought that there must be a better way. Ya one or more generations may get caught in the guinea pig stage of a given technology but if it fills a need or want, eventually it becomes viable for the masses, it's just a matter of time. We can criticize a product all we want in it's infancy, it's actually a good thing; it promotes the thought of making it better. How many remember when a mobile phone took up the whole trunk of a car? I'm sure it met with some criticism then too and for good reason. If we didn't allow the "IDEA" to progress, we wouldn't even have the means to do what we're doing at this very minute

MadBen · Post by **MadBen** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:24 pm

The very concept of "going green" has moved this country towards a much less wasteful mentality. Just look at where we were 30 years ago...Detroits bohemouths were averageing 12-15 mpg and falling apart after 4-5 years. Now it is almost second nature to recycle our trash. The hybrid technology is not for me at all but the seed has been planted and we all behave differently towards our environment than we did 30 years ago. The entire movement can be looked at in terms of far left and far right for sure...but the average person now...as opposed to 30 years ago...thinks greener. Just look at our cars as a great example. It is not uncommon for full size SUV's to get 20+ mpg on the open road. That just didn't happen years ago. I personally am all for the movement! The hybrid/ and electric cars are comical, yes, but I tend to think of them as stepping stones towards a better planet. I get 35 mpg on an all gas Volvo V-50 and my motor runs all the time. Just my .02 cents

alexander38 · Post by **alexander38** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:25 pm

I'm all for re-use of things, but the company that does it should do it on it's own, no tax payer money.
Cars, lord yes they're better than the s**t U.S. auto makers put out 30 yrs ago can you say K-cars.

It's the militant way it's being done the last 3 yrs. and all a the money pissed away ...

Nuc's one was just approved in Ga. last week the 1st since 3 mile island and the Eco Nazi's have vowed to stop it. Then the keystone pipe line, Think of this. How much it would save pumping sweet oil down it instead shipping it from our best friends (sarcasm) in the middle east...