Wood

[AuxiliaryComms]

Alright, just to get it out of the way first, I'm insane, moreso than the average boater, on that note here's the background, or you could just skip this bit and get to the question.

Background:

Febuary 5th, may have been a pivotal day in my life. The NOAA Officer Selection Board met to review candidates for the NOAA Officer Corps. In the stack was an application from a 25 year old Computer Scientist with a boat addiction. By the end of this month, I should know whether I will be ditching my career and heading to Kings Point to become one of the NOAA's newest Ensigns.

What the devil does this have to do with wood?

My wife and I have decided, if a lot of ifs stack up in the right order, we will move out of our house and onto a boat.

Having given it a lot of thought, our Trojan (assuming we could get it fixed) would not provide enough space for us, our son and an 80 pound roughly dog shaped wad of muscles. With that in mind we started looking at boat listings. To my surprise my wife was drawn nearly exclusively to boats I typically fantasise about. The cruisers of the 50s, Monks, Richardsons, Chris Crafts, glistening, curvaceous, mahogany vixens. That's what this has to do with wood.

I've gathered that they take a bit more maintenance than the glass boats of today. From the story of Pizzaz, I know that the fastenings and the bottom planks have to be inspected regularly, and the boat needs to be painted and sealed regularly. I know there's more than that.

So, we've already established that I'm crazy. Am I stupid too? What can I expect from a solid wood boat? How do costs vary to fibreglass boats? What haven't I though of?

I'm not going to get over the aesthetics of the 50's but things will be chaotic if I get what I want, so I'm not above turning my back on these good looking ladies, I just want to know what we're asking for.

[chumwithabottleofrum]

"a bit more maintenance "-that's probably a bit of an understatement. With a family, a career and a large dog finding the time to do the work needed is always a struggle. In addition, check into insuring a wooden boat before purchasing. Many insurance cos. want nothing to do with wooden boats.

[gjrylands]

I admire your spirit. The beauty of the old ladies is undeniable. With that said, it’s time for a reality check. Start by asking the question; ‘Why did they stop making wood boats?’ Wood boats were expensive to build and are expensive to maintain. That is one of the main reasons they are no longer being built as production boats. Owning one requires constant maintenance. The cost of hardwoods has skyrocketed, along with most of the supplies needed to keep the old ladies floating. There are very few owners of these classics that have deep enough pockets to have kept these boats in a seaworthy condition. Those that have have done it out of love of their boat. These are the boats that are going to show up at the classic boat shows and people, not unlike many of us, are going the see the beauty of these magnificent vessels. These are not the boats you are going to find for sale, but if you do, they won’t be affordable.

The reality is, you will be looking at a boat that is 50 or more years old. The saying ‘you’re not getting older, your getting better’, doesn’t apply when talking about a boat. What you can expect to find is one that has had only enough maintenance to keep it afloat, or one that has been on blocks for some time. The problem with fixing boats and this go for all boats no mater what they are built of, is that areas get covered and things are not going to be accessible. You’re not even going to be able to find the problems, let along fix them without taking the boat apart. Most of these boats have a double plank hull. In order to replace an inner plank, the outer planks must be removed. If a structural member needs to be changed the cost of labor and materials is enormous.

One of the major problems with old boats is water leaks. I’m not talking about leaks in the hull, but cabin leaks. Water can leak through windows, hatches, deck fittings, deck seams, and any number of other sources. Water leaks are hard to stop, but more important they promote wood to rot. If the leaks are not corrected the leak only gets worse along with the rot. Rot is the cancer of wood. If it’s not removed, it spreads and you don’t need a dogs nose to detect it when it gets bad..

I just don’t think you realize what you will be getting into. You may want to conceder a newer boat with a glass hull. There are many that have the charm of wood outside and in the cabin.

[AuxiliaryComms]

I just don’t think you realize what you will be getting into. You may want to conceder a newer boat with a glass hull. There are many that have the charm of wood outside and in the cabin.

I realise it, I'm just not real keen on accepting it. I don't know why but it seems like most designers lost all sense of the aesthetics when the switch was made to glass. Some designers are picking back up on the curved looks of the older boats but most of the boats large enough that we could afford are from the early days of glass where, so far as I see, boats were sharp boxy things.

If it comes down to it we will be looking for a home foremost and aesthetics can fall to the side, but if I could chose, I'd like a boat that has the sleek looks rather than a boxy design or the modern tupperware cookie-cutter look.

We have actually already found several of the older boats in the sub $50k price range. We've got a recent survey on one and it all seems to check, out but I'm trying to get more of an idea for the cost involved.

[randyp]

OK - time for a reality check. Please don't take this personally, as I applaud your adventurous spirit and think living aboard a navigable boat would be a great way to raise a family. But, I seriously question your whole outlook on this move.

1. Buying a wooden boat that will be in the water year round? If this is part of the plan you need to be prepared for hull issues so a good sound bottom and hull are going to be paramount to security (ie not sinking). Prepare your housing budget for periodic haulouts for bottom maintenance.

2. Space needed for the three of you and the dog can be less than you may expect, as long as you can live that way for an extended period of time.

3. What are the educational options open to you? If you plan to liveaboard and perhaps cruise longer term you may want to look into home-schooling. If not, scout out a maina close to schools, and also investigate whether or not liveaboards qualify as resident of wherever you plan on living. If so, what is the tax situation for living aboard vs "on the hard" real estate close to where you can berth a boat (not a bad alternative).

4. Back to wood - sure they look pretty when they are all shiny and maintained in Bristol condiition, but many are in reality train wrecks that never ever should leave the marina, let alone be in the water in the first place. Please, please consider fg hull.

5. Design is also another consideration. I know this is a travesty to say it on the forum, but as a former sailor I can tell you you'll get a LOT more boat for your money if you look at sailboats. Especially if you plan to liveaboard you can remove the rigging and store it. Price out a 44 foot sailboat vs trawler of the same vintage and you'll see what I mean. Another option is to look at houseboats. There are some decent ones (Holiday Mansion etc) that are laid out for comfort and you can cruise in them any time.

6. You are dead wrong about early fg boats being design disasters.....have you been looking at any of the boats owned by members of this forum??? Take a look at the older (1975 - 79) Trojan 38 as an example.

7. Maybe you can achieve your dream in increments vs making a big leap to liveaboard life without giving it a try first. As I seem to remember you current boat hasn't been off the trailer, which means you might not have ever spend an overnight on it with the family. Considering that we raised 4 kids and a big old yellow lab on extended weekends and even a 2-week stint on a 25 foot O'Day sailboat, I can definitely tell you liviing aboard any confined space for any extended periods takes not only patience but courage. Why not check out housing within close proxity to a marina? How about renting an apartment and putting the house money into a nice sized cruising boat that you can grow into?

All of this was meant with the utmost in respect for your stated goals, and I hope you take them in the spirit with which they are given - as positive, constructive ideas.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[AuxiliaryComms]

All of this was meant with the utmost in respect for your stated goals, and I hope you take them in the spirit with which they are given - as positive, constructive ideas.

Of course. If my mind was made up I wouldn't be asking . Criticism tends to be a bit mroe realistic than praise.

OK - time for a reality check. Please don't take this personally, as I applaud your adventurous spirit and think living aboard a navigable boat would be a great way to raise a family. But, I seriously question your whole outlook on this move.

Me too.

1. Buying a wooden boat that will be in the water year round? If this is part of the plan you need to be prepared for hull issues so a good sound bottom and hull are going to be paramount to security (ie not sinking). Prepare your housing budget for periodic haul-outs for bottom maintenance.

I had expected haul-outs and goings over checking all the fasteners and joints, etc to be on the maintenance list. I'm trying to get a good idea of the costs involved so that I can contrast it to renting or owning in some of the areas I could be. For example, one boat would require me to live in downtown Norfolk, VA, not a prospect I care for at all and a very expensive venture.

2. Space needed for the three of you and the dog can be less than you may expect, as long as you can live that way for an extended period of time.

It is something we need to experiment with but we are short on time and floating boats. My wife thinks she could do it but feels that if more space were available it could only improve the odds.

3. What are the educational options open to you? If you plan to liveaboard and perhaps cruise longer term you may want to look into home-schooling. If not, scout out a maina close to schools,…

Well our son is less than 2 at the moment so it wouldn't be a problem for a few years, there's no reliable way to guess where we'll be.

…and also investigate whether or not liveaboards qualify as resident of wherever you plan on living. If so, what is the tax situation for living aboard vs "on the hard" real estate close to where you can berth a boat (not a bad alternative).

Any idea where to start that search?

4. Back to wood - sure they look pretty when they are all shiny and maintained in Bristol condiition, but many are in reality train wrecks that never ever should leave the marina, let alone be in the water in the first place. Please, please consider fg hull.

First line of defence there will be surveys and maint records if I can get them. But even FG boats can be disasters waiting to happen if not well maintained.

5. Design is also another consideration. I know this is a travesty to say it on the forum, but as a former sailor I can tell you you'll get a LOT more boat for your money if you look at sailboats. Especially if you plan to liveaboard you can remove the rigging and store it. Price out a 44 foot sailboat vs trawler of the same vintage and you'll see what I mean. Another option is to look at houseboats. There are some decent ones (Holiday Mansion etc) that are laid out for comfort and you can cruise in them any time.

I'm not sure about the houseboats but I'm not opposed to a sailboat at all. In fact before we got our house we tried to get a 40 Bristol sail boat that we felt would be perfect.

6. You are dead wrong about early fg boats being design disasters.....have you been looking at any of the boats owned by members of this forum??? Take a look at the older (1975 - 79) Trojan 38 as an example.

I can look at our 69 as well. As they go they are certainly better looking boats and there are some very nice subtle lines in them. But when I compare them to something like this:



I, personally have a clear winner.

7. Maybe you can achieve your dream in increments vs making a big leap to liveaboard life without giving it a try first. As I seem to remember you current boat hasn't been off the trailer, which means you might not have ever spend an overnight on it with the family. Considering that we raised 4 kids and a big old yellow lab on extended weekends and even a 2-week stint on a 25 foot O'Day sailboat, I can definitely tell you liviing aboard any confined space for any extended periods takes not only patience but courage. Why not check out housing within close proxity to a marina? How about renting an apartment and putting the house money into a nice sized cruising boat that you can grow into?

Time ends up being our main constraint. Second to that is where we will be sent, which I will only know in the final minutes of a months long transition. Our motivating factor is not wanting to live in some of the city waterfronts that we could end up at. But, I will be required to live within 30 minutes of the boat.

We're just in the very early stages of looking and don't know what will happen. All of this is going to be a bit of an exercise for a while, but we've wanted to live on a boat for a while, so we're taking this and the potential benefits under consideration.

[randyp]

Jason - good information and you're on the right track. Check out "Cruising World" magazine and their archives for some really good liveaboard articles and information. Who knows, maybe I'll read about you and your family one day sailing around the world. You can definitely get a boat for a lot less than some houses. All depends on your perspective.

[gjrylands]

A friend of mine, Captain Val, owed the Valara V, a 55-foot classic wooden Chris Craft. He owns a charter business in Chicago and before he sold the Valara V it was subject to yearly Coast Guard inspection before he could get his charter permit. (He now owns the Valara V!) Each fall when the boat was hauled for winter storage the repairs began. Besides him, he had a crew of four that would work all winter to fix what ever project was in need of repair that year. By spring the boat would be back together and ready for the next year’s charters. Talking with him, he already planned what repairs would be needed next year. He never waited for the repair to become critical, it was more preventive maintenance. This isn’t to say the projects weren’t massive. Every winter he had some major project in the works or the next one planned. Sometimes it was mechanical, other times it was structural, but there was always something left to do to the boat. Maintenance didn’t end during the summer. The crew could always be found doing something, whether it be cleaning, waxing, painting, varnishing, or any number of different activates. This boat was the exception, having the proper maintenance to keep it seaworthy.

A few years ago, or mabe a few more then a few, he sold the Valara V to Bemus Point Classic Yachts, LLC. The boat is still a working charter boat and is now named Celebration.

http://www.valara.com/site_pages/val_aboutus_val_01.htm

http://www.bemuspt.com/attractions/celebration.asp

[LSP]

Jason .... I spent a few years living aboard a houseboat (1973 43' Nautaline) My wife, before we were married / a yorkie / a couple parrots / an aquarium (50 gls.) a couple snakes / and a number of small lizards.....oh, and my two children (prior life) on the weekends. The first couple of years was a blast .... then the boat became a true home. For the next 6 years or so .... the boat never left the dock.....way to much stuff on board to take her out.

Keeping up with the maintenance was a treat .... especially during the winter months. I couldn't begin to imagine how it would be if she'd had been wooden.

[capt ralph]

hi,if you really love the old woodies and are ready to dedicate alot of time and maintenance then do it,i grew up around old wood boats,thats all my father had,and i was constantly doing something to the boats.there is no dought,they are beautiful.i had looked at a 44 but decided it would be to much work.i would rather be on the water than on dry dock.good luck on your decision

[rossjo]

Sound like you've got a woody for a woody ...

The wood is good, but too much work ... "wrap your a$$ in fiberglass" to lie aboard.

Theres plenty of good looking interior wood on most fiberglass Trojans, and the fiberglass hull is over an inch thick and "insurable" ...

[gjrylands]

My last boat was a woody. Had it for over 20 years. It got to the point that I was just not willing to to spend the time and money required to keep it in the condition I wated.

Buying my F36 was the right decision for me. The boat requires maintenance. as all boats do, but nothing like what it took with my woody.

Ahhhh!!!! Glass, at last.

[guglielmo6160]

If you have the cash,,,,,,,,,,,, go for it, its all about what you love, and if what you love cost money, and you have it,,, go for it, thats all you need to know in life,

[prowlersfish]

Don't forget many marinas do like wooden boats . and many do not allow live aboard insurance is costly on wooden boats when you can get it . and almost all marinas make you have it .

[Safari]

I have owned a wooden boat for many years (before I got the F36) - The best advice any one could give you: DONT DO IT - DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.

"Now a 30 year old 40+ foot long wooden boat with two finicky gas motors is a cantankerous contraption that will defy nature and science to remain broken down and in the dock. They have a mind of their own. If they don’t want to run, don’t make them. By their very nature, the boat wants to sink, the engines want to break down and the gas tank wants to explode. Things like electrolysis actually dissolve metal, anything steel rusts, wood rots. Top it all off, the seagulls steal anything shiny, and crap on anything flat. There is an infinite number of variables at play, and they all work against you."