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Another New Guy

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:16 pm
by gjrylands
Hi All,

I would like to introduce myself to all of you in the Trojan Boat Forum. My name is Gerry Rylands. (gjrylands@att.net) I bought my first Trojan in 1972, "At Last", a 1964 28' woody with a single Gray Marine 327. (American Motors not GM). I bought my second Trojan "Sea Breeze", in 1977. Again it was a woody , a 1969 31 footer with twin Chrysler 318's. I had that boat for 23 years and knew that boat from stem to stern. My third Trojan, "Sea Breeze", is a 1979 F36 that I bought in 2000, which is the boat I presently own. For the record, "You have to be a bit crazy to own a boat."

I live in the Chicago area and boat in Lake Michigan. I have done extensive traveling in the lake making several trips to Door County, WI, Mackinac Island MI, and one trip to the North Channel in Canada. The price of fuel has limited my travels lately and I have been a harbor bum the last few years.

I have done major work on each of my boats, and do almost all the work myself. The 31' er is the boat that took the most upkeep mainly because I had it the longest & it was wood.

Some of the projects that I did to the first "Sea Breeze", and the list is long,was:
1. To build and install an operatioal flybridge including steering ,controls, and full gauges.
2. Built and installed a teak swim platform.
3. Removed and replaced the rear deck, including all of the frame work and hatches.
4. Removed and replaced the entire front deck, including the gunnels, rub rail, toe rail, the top foot of the hull, added a bow pulpit, and reworked the bow rail. (This was the biggest project. Missed an entire year)
5. Removed the cavas from the cabin roof and hard top and fiberglassed them.
6. Installed air conditioning in the salon.
7. Converted the ice box to a refrigerator.
8. Built and installed a new power panel with duel 30 A shore power and magnetic breakers. (needed the extra power for the air conditioner)
9. Removed and replaced the entire transom.
10. Customized the V birth area with cabinets and a built in tv
11. Rebuilt, or replaced engines a number of times. (There's a story here that will have to wait for another time)
Although this may sound like a huge list, remember I had the boat for 23 years. One thing about a wood boat is that wood rots. Rot is like a cancer and if it isn't removed, it spreads. Although the first "Sea Breeze" was a labor of love, I wasn't sorry to see her go. Anyone that says wood is what boats are supposed to be made of are glutens for punishment and has never owned glass.

The projects that I did on the new "Sea Breeze" include the following.
1. Installed a sea water wash down system.
2. Installed a new water heater
3. Installed Simrad auto pilot
4. Installed an Atlantic Tower radar arch
5. Installed radar and relocated all antennas to the arch
6. Installed indirect lighting in salon and rear deck
7. Installed a 12V DC subpanel
8. Added a second holding tank and reworked the head (There's a story here that will have to wait for another time)
9. An engine rebuild (There's another story here that will have to wait for another time)
10. Replaced exaust manifold and valve job

The new "Sea Breeze" is glass, and requires far less maintenance. This is not to say no maintenance. The winter project this year is to repair the balsa core on my front deck. I have a number of soft spots on the deck. I have only just started, but what I have found is worse then I expected. I have decided to leave the deck intact and make the repairs from below. I started in the rope locker and cut the bottom layer of glass to expose the balsa core. With the bottom layer of glass removed, I found the balsa core to be mush and totaly saterated with water. Water had got in around the cleats and the anchor line hole. I removed the head liner and hull liner in the forward state room. The balsa core below the anchor chocks is discolored. there are also discolored core around the hatches. These all look like spots that will require attention. Until I remove the lower glass and core, I won't know the extent of the repair, but I thinkI will need to open the head liner in the hall and dinette. The ceiling in the head is a panel screwed to deck. I may have to take it down as well.

The owner of my boat yard told me that he had made this repair on a number of boats. He advised me not to replace the core with balsa, rather use marine plywood cut in 4" squares so it will follow the contour of the deck, and stagger the joints. Working upside down is messy. Cover everytiing with plastic to protect the boat from the drips. Cover the plastic with paper to protect the plastic. He also told me that the job will only be done when the sorce of the water is fixed. This could require making repairs in the deck. Grinding out cracks and filling them. I'll have to do what ever it takes to keep the water out. I think this project will last a long time. Probably lasting will into next season, but at least the work can be done in the harbor. I'll keep you up to date as the project progresses.

new guy

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:29 am
by aaronbocknek
welcome to the group. what a fantastic bio you have!!! if you ever get to baltimore (hop a southwest flight to bwi) i would love to meet you and have you go over my 1976 f-32. hell, i'll even put you up for the weekend and we can go over her from stem to stern....
again...
welcome aboard.
aaron

Core replacement was Re: Another New Guy

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:49 am
by ready123
gjrylands wrote:The new "Sea Breeze" is glass, and requires far less maintenance. The winter project this year is to repair the balsa core on my front deck. I have a number of soft spots on the deck. I have only just started, but what I have found is worse then I expected. I have decided to leave the deck intact and make the repairs from below.
Sounds to me that you may end up with full deck replacement, my F32 had large soft spots and on opening up was considered best to do full core replacement of decks.

I had all the front and side decks replaced with balsa on my F32 two years ago. From what I saw of the job I would strongly suggest you change your method of operation and do it from the top. All the glass shops (Canadian & 1 in Michigan) I had spoken with (4) do it this way and they have done many F32's between them over the years.

It will be so much quicker to not work against gravity. I also would suggest you stick with balsa or go to the new plastic core material (more expensive) rather than plywood. I think you will find the plywood will add more weight and that it will not in fact be as rigid as cross cut balsa.

The main advantage of working from the top is that you can press the new core (small sections) in a bed of epoxy & new glass (2/3 layers) and then cover it with more epoxy & glass to make a well sealed bag of new core. You now have a stronger construction than before. This method means that any new water sources have a more difficult time of travelling around the whole cored area.

I can't see how you would get thorough epoxy around the new core without wasting a lot of it while working from below, fear of bubbles/air pockets under top deck as you work from below also?

The work was done by cutting away the top glass in sections and doing the full repair one section at a time, except the gel work of course. The fore deck was 4 sections and the cabin roof area supported from below was 1/2 sections. I do have a CD of progress pictures which I can display somewhere if you are interested. Each side deck was done in one section. The estimates were from 230 to 360 hrs for the job. :o

Just how I see things... As I let professionals do the work I have no personal experience other than looking at things with an engineer's critical eye.
I am very pleased with the finished job and am sure the topsides will last another 30 yrs. :)

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:25 am
by prowlersfish
Gerry ,welcome to the forum . The right way to repair rotten deck core is from the top .Working from the bottom will be messy and almost impossable to get it right . most of the load is on the lower section of glass . sure its harder to get it to look right but it can be done . you can always do most the work your self and get a good glass man to do the finsh work .

Now if I was repairing a small section( less then a sq foot ) I would probley do it from the bottom . when you pull the head liner you can see the wet spots in bright sun light . I would do this even if repairing from the top so you know what you have to do .

Now the important part . How to stop it . caulk caulk caulk ! every hole in the deck it a way for water to get in . every bolt /screw /fitting must be sealed and resealed when necessary . I like to seal the hole with epoxy ( and let it dry before I put a bolt or screw in and use plenty

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:38 am
by wowzer52
Welcome aboard Gerry.

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:09 pm
by gjrylands
Thanks for the input. I find that hearing other opinions only increases the knowledge base. I've found from working on boats that learning is an ongoing experance. Many times the approach that we start a project with is not the best approach and we wind up backtracking and attacking the problem from a different direction. The deck problem may prove to be one of those times. Since I have already removed the botton layer of glass in the rope locker section I have committed myself to making the repair from below. If it proves to be too difficult, I may take your advise and attack the problem from the top. As I stated before, learning is an ongoing experance.

I think the original spot that water entered the balsa core was the hole in the deck that the anchor line passes through. It looked like a hole saw was used to drill a hole through the deck and the rope deck pipe was sealed and screwed over the hole. There was nothing done to seal the exposed balsa core, or at least if it was sealed it didn't hold up. Water was than able to enter the core. The F36 Trojan has a forward sloping deck that slants towards the bow. As the water migrated through the core, gravity pulled it foward. Eventually the core in the nose section became satrated. I'll know more as the project progresses.

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:20 pm
by ready123
gjrylands wrote:Thanks for the input. I find that hearing other opinions only increases the knowledge base. Since I have already removed the botton layer of glass in the rope locker section I have committed myself to making the repair from below.
No problem but would suggest you move to the top should you need to do anymore work.
The underside glass layer is the thickest laydown and where the strength comes from as mentioned by prowlerfish. Make sure the core is dry aft of where you have stopped. Have you done any moisture checking on the top sides? Any soundings with a nylon hammer? I find the latter tool very helpful in checking for damp spots when I don't have access to a good moisture meter.

Removing from above is in fact very easy, I'll get my photos up so you can see a big core job in pictures.

Photos of deck recore

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:36 pm
by ready123
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32233258@N ... 792002787/

Just realised I don't have any showing finished job... will get those in.

PS can only find before photos... I was obviously so pleased with result I did not need any photo records!! :D

I will look and see if I can find any taken by friends who have been aboard.
Done...

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:40 pm
by Peter
also have F36, and a lazy streak the size of the 44. Was really hoping to just inject epoxy in holes drilled from above about every 4" apart, fair, and then paint with non-slip paint to cover the holes. Had thought I could perhaps hook up a shop vacuum, run it for several days, to dry out the balsa as much as possible with the air circulation. I suppose though, when it was time to do the major structural repair, this would be a major headache, by sticking the inside and outside liners together.

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:32 pm
by ready123
Peter,
I'm not sure you gain much by putting in pockets of vertical strength like that.
The job of removing bad stuff and putting in new is quite easy... it is the final finish and gel work that requires some skill and experience.
With what I know now to save money I would do the removal and replace of core & glass and have a pro do the gel work finish.
From my photos you can see the removal is a hand circular saw to cut the top glass away and then a chipper to remove the wet balsa. Putting new epoxy, balsa core and glass topping can be considered a semi skilled project. The gel work needs specific tools, environment and some technique that the average guy may not have.

I have seen a process to return strength to wet wood without it's removal but the top glass would still need to be removed to dry and then impregnate the balsa with chemical. I'm not sure that route is more cost effective than replacement. It has been used on engine stringers where the added savings are non removal of the engines.
http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:42 pm
by gjrylands
The nonskid surface of the deck is what I am trying to preserve. I have worked with fiberglass a number of times, but I finished them with a coat of epoxy primer and Emron. My surfaces were smooth and when finished it looked like it was done in the factory. My experance with gelcoat is limited. I understand that graining paper can be used to restore the nonskid surface, but I have never used them. A profesional glassman isn't in the budget. Even with doing the work myself I expect The project will cost plenty.

Iv'e been flip flopping between using balsa core or plywood. My first thought was to go with the balsa core. After talking to Mike, owner of my boatyard, I flipped to the plywood. Now, Michael has flopped me back to balsa core. I think I have ruled out the foam core. An article I read on making balsa core repairs stated that core materials should not be mixed.

I did find a source for 3/4" balsa core, which is the thickness that Trojan used when they made the boat. Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, Rhode Island sells it for $41.71/sheet (2'x4') plus shipping. Another supplier is Fiberglass Supply, Burlington, WA. Their price is $39.44 plus shipping. I haven't got shipping quotes from either supplier yet so I don't know who will be cheaper. If anyone has a source for less, I'm all ears.

I will also need headliner, hull liner, epoxy resin, polyester resin, microspheres, fiberglass cloth tape, fiberglass mat, acetone, and more things that I haven't thought of yet. Stores on eBay have many of these supplies at, what I think, are good prices. I'm sure I will do more shopping before I buy.

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:13 pm
by ready123
gjrylands wrote:The nonskid surface of the deck is what I am trying to preserve.
The non skid gel in my photos was applied with a roller much like what one would use to do a stucco ceiling. I kind of like the look compared to the crosscut finish non skid decks I have seen and the non skid property is very good when wet.
gjrylands wrote:I will also need headliner
Best match & price I could find for headliner was from here:
http://www.a1foamandfabrics.com/site/pr ... F16DD468A5

Of all the jobs I have done the headliner was the most frustrating and time consuming and the one that made me lower my standards to complete the job.
If I could have done without replacing it I would have... but the 30 yr old faded colour looked out of place with all the other improvements I was doing to the boat.

It is a two person job and you better have strong fingers and arms to stretch it in two directions to remove any wrinkles. Check the spacing between vertical wood structures and the underside of the top deck... it became obvious to me that the headliner was up before Trojan installed any of the interior wood frames. :oops:
Good luck with that project and only do it on your very patient days...

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:24 pm
by JuiceClark
I just want to echo what's been said by my fellow, well-learned Trojan dudes! The fix is not as hard as it is intimidating. Work from the top 4 sure...so much easier I think.
Set your circular saw just about a 1/4" deep and open small sections at a time...maybe 2' by 2' or so. For me, working on the flybridge, digging the old crap out was by far the hardest part.

I've had my F-36 sold twice and both didn't come up with the money. Now, I think about how grateful I am they bombed. I love that boat...perfect size, easy to work on and the design just doesn't allow for the unpleasant surprises you get with some other.

Welcome, Tony

Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:23 pm
by ready123
JuiceClark wrote:For me, working on the flybridge, digging the old crap out was by far the hardest part.
Can you give more details on this job?
What is the construction of the bridge floor? Wood plank with balsa ontop?
thickness of balsa?
I have a small patch that will need work and am planning to do it myself.