Trojan/Bertram ???????????

summer storm · Post by **summer storm** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:47 pm

I just don't get it, I can't remember how many times I see a ad for a Trojan and the owner for some reason feels his boat is a Bertram. I have even seen a F-32 where the owner felt it was correct to put a Bertram label under the Trojan one on the side of the deck house. Now I know that there was a time when a parent company (Whitaker) owned both Trojan and Bertram but I have never seen a car for sale calling it a Chevy/Cadillac or a VW/Audi.

I have been to both Factories and I knew the VP of Production at Trojan and I can tell you these boats have nothing in common.

I guess that some owners are trying to sell there vessel and think that the Bertram name will help but I truly believe that the Trojan name needs no help, these are good boats, look at the number of F-32's and F36's still out there.

Am I the only one who feels this way? or should I give up and accept it.

the link below shows a Trojan/Bertram currently for sale and somehow the owner removed the Delta Conic hull and put a Bertram hull in.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-40- ... 33586a7670

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:39 pm

I see those ads all the time ,It is amazing how many folks think they have a Bertram hull . I even saw a F36 being sold that way , when I contacted to broker about it he took me I was wrong. Trojan did sell some meter boats with the Bertram/Trojan name on them pure marketing. the Trojans folks were not real fond of the Bertram people and I am sure it worked both ways some. they did co-op buying hardware and resins etc .Whitaker also made sail boats. Whitaker was trying to be the GM of boating .

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:48 pm

A lot of late model Internationals say Trojan/Bertram right on the boat(from the factory) so is that wrong for someone to capitalize on that fact when trying to sell? Nowadays you need all the help you can get when you have a boat on the market.
I have to agree about saying it has a Bertram hull as they were the same weather Bertram had their name on the boat or not. It was pure marketing hype.
I bet if you had a late model International with the Bertram name on it you would feel differantly.

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:52 pm

A lot of the Internationals never said Bertram on them and folks say they are Bertram's when they not . and to said its a Bertram hull is just false . the Bertram's had their trade mark deep-V . the Internationals had their delta conic hull and the f series had their modified V hull they all have there pros and cons. I belive the International hull is the best all around hull shores the pros of both hulls ( just IMO)

jon_e_quest · Post by **jon_e_quest** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:16 pm

There's also a GEN2 Tri-cabin for sale out there right now being marketed by an American broker as a Trojan/Shepherd. I believe the GEN1 Tri-Cabins were indeed built in a former Shepherd facility, but it's hardly accurate to call the boat a Shepherd, especially a GEN2 boat which I believe was made in the States.

Anyone know when Tri-Cabin production was moved from Canada to the U.S.?

S.A.M. · Post by **S.A.M.** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:34 am

Where were the Internationals hulls built? In Pennsylvania or Florida? Mine has the Torjan/Bertram tag.

I have to agree if they were built in Pennsylvania, then it's Trojan. But if Bertram had anything to do the construction of the boats, then the manufacturer's tag would be correct.

RWS · Post by **RWS** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:53 pm

From what I understand they were all built in Lancaster, PA.

Any boats bearing the Trojan name afte the move to Pulaski, WI shared nothing in common with the Lancaster built Internationals or F serics, as these models were scrubbed after the sale.

As I understand it, the molds were destroyed as paoet of the agreement of sale.

There may have been royalty issues regarding the Harry Schoell designed International and the use of his patented Delta Conic Hull.

The above are not facts, just my repeating heresay that I have picked up over the years from knowledgable individuals.

RWS

chauzer · Post by **chauzer** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:59 pm

so which boats did they build in polaski?

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:49 pm

The Pulaski, WI boats where the carver built "trojans"

everyone here should read this

http://www.trojanboats.net/trojan-boat- ... story.html

summer storm · Post by **summer storm** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:37 pm

Well maybe this will help a little, taken from the Bertram web site-

In March, 1985, Whittaker sells part of its interest in Bertram and three other marine companies to Investcorp in a leveraged buyout. The transaction results in Whittakerâ€™s portfolio becoming three newly formed companies. One, Bertram Trojan, Inc., acquires the assets of the Bertram Yacht and Trojan Yacht divisions. Bertram 37 convertible is introduced with sleek, new styling.

It seems to me that After Whittaker found itself in money trouble they formed Bertram-Trojan INC to protect assets from Investcorp, which looks to me aquired part ownership of the newly formed Bertram-Trojan company. This to me makes sense, if you owned a Trojan after this new company was formed then in fact somewhere on your boat you should have a Built by "Bertram-Trojan" company name plate instead of "Trojan Yachts"

But once again just because a chevy has a made by "GM' doesn't mean cadillac had anything to do with it.

I also found out that after Trojan closed in 1992 The molds were cut up and Carver paid 2 million for the Trojan name, just the name, the factory was sold to a local company and all the tooling was destroyed.

Iknow that Carver had "Trojan made by Carver" right on the deck house
But I am not sure about the later Bertram-Trojan INC boats

S.A.M. what year is your boat and where on the vessel is the Bertram-Trojan tag located?

I think we are getting closer to finding out what happened, at least I am. and as I started this thread, I think at this point the next time some guy tries to tell me that his Trojan is a Bertram, I may just nod in agreement[/b]

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:51 pm

"The molds were cut up" is a rumor . maybe . Trojan and Bertram were never built in the same place and had as Little to do with each other as possible . this came up in talks with John Leed in August at St Mikes . some of us where there , I hope more will be there next year and I hope john will be there again

davescarrs · Post by **davescarrs** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:53 am

I have a 1987 10 Meter Trojan International. The metal VIN tag in the electrical panel under "Make" reads Trojan by Bertram. It is stamped in the metal this way, just like the VIN number below it.

summer storm · Post by **summer storm** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:36 am

OK, thanks guys I think I understand this a little better. Boats built between 1985 and 1992 are in fact Trojans built by Bertram, Bertram-Trojan inc, and in fact can be listed as a Trojan built by Bertram. That's what the tag says.

1960's to 1985 = whitaker inc
1985 to 1992 = Bertram- Trojan inc
1992 to ??? = Carver yachts

Thanks davescars for that input

One note, I worked with Ron Pickle at Hargrave yachts before he passed away and he was a VP of engineering at Trojan for something like 20 years and he told me that he was ordered to chain saw the molds in 1992. When he departed he said the only thing left on the grounds was a F32 hull that was unuseable (the fiberglass didn't kick) sitting in the field.

I always wondered what I would do if I could aquire the F32 molds, I still think that a 2010 F32 with diesels would be a great seller.

BTW yes, I am at work LOL

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:10 pm

Trojan built by Bertram ? never just marketing hype back then and now !
Bertram's where know for strong hulls but sure had poor fit and finish back then Trojans where much better as far as fii and finish . If all I did is offshore fishing I would have a Bertram . But I don't so I have a Trojan it suits my needs better . there all good boat no matter if says Bert or not .

I own a Trojan and am proud of it and glad its not a Bert.

Go to a Bertram site and say you have a Bert, you will get your feelings hurt .

Trojan boats Have some thing no Bertram has ! Trojan owners I like to think we are a better group of boaters .

chauzer · Post by **chauzer** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:04 pm

i will say bertrams of the 70's years were a heck of alot more spartan in the salon area then trojans of the same vintage. have heard guys say the 28 berts were the "go to" boat for off shore. why? build or hull design or what? if you've ever looked at a 33 bertrams cockpit compared to a 32 trojan the bertrams are alot bigger but very, very "bare bones" boats.