Wiring additional batteries

This forum is for comments and the exchange of information relating to Trojan Boats and boating. Please do not post used parts or boats For Sale in this area. For general, non-boating topics please use our "General Discussions" section.

Note: Negative or inflammatory postings will not be tolerated.

Moderators: BeaconMarineBob, Moderator, BeaconMarineDon

User avatar
vickyb
Registered user
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 am
Contact:

Wiring additional batteries

Post by vickyb »

Hello,

Currently I have only ONE battery per engine. It is the starter battery. I plan to add a deep cycle battery. Could anyone comment if I have the diagram set up correctly? Alternately, I was thinking of connecting the starter batteries in parallel and then connecting them both to each of the engines and leaving the deep cycles isolated to run the 12V systems on the boat when on the water. With that, the questions are:

1. Distance between both the starter batteries is about 15ft. Connecting the two could be an issue.
2. Can a single charging pair charge TWO batteries at the same time as indicated in the diagram? Would I need a battery charge balancer of something to that effect?

Image
87 Trojan International
Fiberglass Hull

User avatar
g36
Moderate User
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:24 am
Location: soddy daisy, tennessee

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by g36 »

the problem with charging batteries in parrallel is when/if one goes "bad" the other will also be drawn down and then the charger will over charge the still "good one" while continuing to try and charge the bad one then you have 2 bad batteries.
this is a better way but certainly not the only way or even the best way to some use batt3 has deep cycle house bank
http://www.emarineinc.com/products/alte ... lt3bat.jpg
1997 CARVER 405
"the BLACK PEARL"

past fleet
1978 F32 SEDAN CHRYSLER 318's

current fleet
1997 seadoo gts
1997 yamaha wave venture
1985 sunbird 18 ft runabout
1968 coronado sailboat 25 ft
sunfish
14' hobie cat
canoe
8ft portabote

User avatar
ready123
Ultimate User
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Mactier, Ontario Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by ready123 »

What you show is wrong....... basically you now have a deep cycle and starting battery in same circuit.... starting the engines.
Deep cycles for house use should be standalone.... so you need a charging system with three legs, one for port engine, one for starboard and one leg for the deep cycles.
I see no reason to combine both starting batteries as you remove the safety of backup by keeping them apart.

What are you trying to achieve by adding deep cycles?
How do you use your boat?
Anchor out a lot?
Use generator?
Long runs between stops frequently?

How you answer to those questions will effect the design of your house battery layout.....
Michael
Rum is the reason Pirate's have never ruled the world
Done Dreamin'
1987 President 43' Twin Lehman 225SP Turbo
Highfield 310 Ally 15 HP Yamaha 2cycle
1978 F32 Sedan twin 318 Chry SOLD
Safe Cove Marina, Port Charlotte, FL

User avatar
vickyb
Registered user
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 am
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by vickyb »

Thank you. studying the picture now.
87 Trojan International
Fiberglass Hull

User avatar
vickyb
Registered user
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 am
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by vickyb »

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the response and the questions. Here is what I found and answers to your questions.

- I currently have only 2 batteries on the boat. They are both starter batteries I think. One connected to each engine and the charging block connected to both. Not sure which one(s) is connected to the 12V panel for use on the water.
- When I connect to shore power, both batteries are 100%
- If I disconnect shore power, ready for cast off and run the blower for about 3 mins. My battery 1 goes to about 60%.
- I can barely crank the engine 1 (Starboard side for reference) till the battery is almost down to 10-20%. This tells me battery 1 is shot
- If I go out on the water, in about 20 mins, battery 1 is now at 100%
- If I turn off all engines on the water and cast anchor to fish, both batteries are good, 100%. ALL systems on the boat are OFF at this stage, including lights, depth finder.. EVERYTHING is OFF. If everything is not off, the battery drains in 5 mins.
- When I am ready to go, if I turn on the blower for even 30secs-1 min, Battery 1 goes to 60% or less.
- I can barely crank the engine 1 till the battery is almost down to 10-20%
- I have to drive at least 20 mins to get battery 1 to 100% or close before I shut down or I do not have the power to restart the starboard engine.

What I would like to do is go out on the lake, cast anchor and perhaps listen to music and atleast have some basic lights on like navigation lights (if after dark) but I cannot switch anything on. Subsequently, I would like to maybe spend a night on the water if that is at all possible, but for the time being, being out on the water for about 5 hours with basic systems and radio running is all that I want.

Any recommendations on suggested wiring/layout will be appreciated.
87 Trojan International
Fiberglass Hull

User avatar
ready123
Ultimate User
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Mactier, Ontario Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by ready123 »

Sounds like your battery is bad and should be changed....
What are you using to tell you the % level of the batteries? Batteries mimic the supply voltage almost immediately while connected to the source it can take up to an hour before the Voltage on the connectors reflect the TRUE battery voltage after removing the charging source. I believe it is this state that is fooling you into thinking your battery becomes good.... when really it is bad all the time.


Image

A fully charged battery 100% should read at least 12.8V and you should not discharge it below about 12.2V.... 50%
Michael
Rum is the reason Pirate's have never ruled the world
Done Dreamin'
1987 President 43' Twin Lehman 225SP Turbo
Highfield 310 Ally 15 HP Yamaha 2cycle
1978 F32 Sedan twin 318 Chry SOLD
Safe Cove Marina, Port Charlotte, FL

User avatar
ready123
Ultimate User
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Mactier, Ontario Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by ready123 »

vickyb wrote:Hello Michael,
What I would like to do is go out on the lake, cast anchor and perhaps listen to music and at least have some basic lights on like navigation lights (if after dark) but I cannot switch anything on. Subsequently, I would like to maybe spend a night on the water if that is at all possible, but for the time being, being out on the water for about 5 hours with basic systems and radio running is all that I want.
Any recommendations on suggested wiring/layout will be appreciated.
What you need to do is replace that bad battery before proceeding. Then you will be able to do what you want with existing setup providing you are not running a high powered stereo. Go with a larger battery than the engine demands for some added safety.

Do you have a crossover system to help one engine start the other in an emergency?

Wiring changes and addition of a deep cycle circuit can then be reviewed once you have answered the questions on usage further... do you have a generator.

On my Trojan I have not gone to the effort to change the wiring of the manufactured house loads... I did add a deep cycle circuit and connected the heavy loads directly to it (Fridge, Inverter, stereo) changed my lighting to LED and have no problems when I anchor out for days.
I use a generator to recharge while away from the dock. My trips are low time runs so I don't worry about using the engine to recharge my house bank they just keep each starting battery up to snuff.
Michael
Rum is the reason Pirate's have never ruled the world
Done Dreamin'
1987 President 43' Twin Lehman 225SP Turbo
Highfield 310 Ally 15 HP Yamaha 2cycle
1978 F32 Sedan twin 318 Chry SOLD
Safe Cove Marina, Port Charlotte, FL

User avatar
g36
Moderate User
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:24 am
Location: soddy daisy, tennessee

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by g36 »

i responded to one of your posts regarding batteries with a link to a battery load tester did you happen to look at it? still sounds like your batteries need attention. it would save you some effort to be able to test what you have and then replace the bad one in one trip rather than pulling them all out etc.

heres one way of a crossover using 2 switches and a couple of acr's ( automatic charging relays) that isolates your house bank totally when engines are off but gets charged when running. or you could just install the 2 switches shown and one on/off on the house bank and forget the acr's but you will need to remember to manually turn the switch to isolate your house bank and also to recharge it, the other does this for you without you doing anything. both ways allows emergency starting from another battery by simply moving the switch.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh30 ... teries.jpg

here is about what an acr is
http://www.bluesea.com/resources/1366
1997 CARVER 405
"the BLACK PEARL"

past fleet
1978 F32 SEDAN CHRYSLER 318's

current fleet
1997 seadoo gts
1997 yamaha wave venture
1985 sunbird 18 ft runabout
1968 coronado sailboat 25 ft
sunfish
14' hobie cat
canoe
8ft portabote

User avatar
vickyb
Registered user
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 am
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by vickyb »

The batteries in my boat are not originals.. I have twin Merc 260's...Not sure what batteries I need for that. One site says: 375 cca/475 mca/90 Ah

Which of these batteries would be equivalent?: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/search-re ... ne+battery

Not sure if Canadian Tire is a good option for getting these batteries. Only reason is its more accessible to me vs a Marine Store.
87 Trojan International
Fiberglass Hull

User avatar
g36
Moderate User
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:24 am
Location: soddy daisy, tennessee

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by g36 »

man it would be great if the batteries were originals being your boat is 1987 i wish they could last that long
with the link you sent i would choose this one for starting might be a bit more than needed but cost very similiar to smaller
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/group ... 2799p.html

a single group 27 isnt the best for a house bank like stated earlier only using 50% of the capacity of you battery is the goal the 27 is rated around 100 amps so 50% gives you only 50 amps to use. so upsizng the house will be important and thats why your desire while anchored out matters to help here. i use 6 volt golf cart batteries for my house bank. still going strong 8 years on the current set they are meant for heavy usage
1997 CARVER 405
"the BLACK PEARL"

past fleet
1978 F32 SEDAN CHRYSLER 318's

current fleet
1997 seadoo gts
1997 yamaha wave venture
1985 sunbird 18 ft runabout
1968 coronado sailboat 25 ft
sunfish
14' hobie cat
canoe
8ft portabote

User avatar
ready123
Ultimate User
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Mactier, Ontario Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by ready123 »

vickyb wrote:The batteries in my boat are not originals.. I have twin Merc 260's...Not sure what batteries I need for that. One site says: 375 cca/475 mca/90 Ah
Which of these batteries would be equivalent?: http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/search-re ... ne+battery
Not sure if Canadian Tire is a good option for getting these batteries. Only reason is its more accessible to me vs a Marine Store.
Right now I would use this one, buy two one for each engine if it were me.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/group ... -VxCvldWSo
That will cover you for the day trip excursions you described then at a later date you can put in a dedicated deep cycle circuit for the fridge, stereo and any other heavier load while out.

Where are you located?
Michael
Rum is the reason Pirate's have never ruled the world
Done Dreamin'
1987 President 43' Twin Lehman 225SP Turbo
Highfield 310 Ally 15 HP Yamaha 2cycle
1978 F32 Sedan twin 318 Chry SOLD
Safe Cove Marina, Port Charlotte, FL

User avatar
Big D
Ultimate User
Posts: 2859
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by Big D »

Don't put start and deep cycle batteries in the same bank. By far the best way to go is a separate start battery per engine and run a separate cable from a deep cycle house bank to your distgribution panel. I never use anything less than 1000MCA 800CCA for gasers now. How you charge such a system is another topic, and while ACRs are all the craze now, you have to know what you're doing. Unless they monitor both sides/loads, you shouldn't hook one up to a crank and a deep cycle battery as you're essentially combining two dissimilar batteries for the purposes of charging which is never a good thing, yet folks seem to think it's okay to do when using ACRs for some reason. Personally I don't like the deep cylcle/start batteries, they are a compromise at best of the two different designs/builds. Not crazy about the brand you're choosing, have thrown too many of them away.
She was a 1969 36 ft wooden beauty with big blue 440s that we'll miss forever.
And thanks to the gang, 2012 Trojan Boater Of The Year

User avatar
vickyb
Registered user
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 am
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by vickyb »

I live in Richmond Hill. Thank you all for the information posted. I am still absorbing it. I did get the battery charger and did try it out and the batteries seem fine according to the three tests I performed. Hence I am baffled
87 Trojan International
Fiberglass Hull

User avatar
ready123
Ultimate User
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:53 pm
Location: Mactier, Ontario Canada
Contact:

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by ready123 »

vickyb wrote:I live in Richmond Hill. Thank you all for the information posted. I am still absorbing it. I did get the battery charger and did try it out and the batteries seem fine according to the three tests I performed. Hence I am baffled
Where do you keep the boat?
Did get the battery charger? Does that mean you have no charger in your electrical system while at the dock???

3 tests?
Did you perform a load test? Requires special equipment.... take them into your local Can Tire and get them to do a load test.... make sure they are fully charged first. Usually Free service....
Did you get the wing nut off?

P.S.
You might want to fill out details in your profile like location... go there by clicking User Control panel top of page left side.
Michael
Rum is the reason Pirate's have never ruled the world
Done Dreamin'
1987 President 43' Twin Lehman 225SP Turbo
Highfield 310 Ally 15 HP Yamaha 2cycle
1978 F32 Sedan twin 318 Chry SOLD
Safe Cove Marina, Port Charlotte, FL

User avatar
P-Dogg
Active User
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:15 pm
Location: Near Baltimorgue, Murderland, which proves to the world every day that gun control doesn't work.

Re: Wiring additional batteries

Post by P-Dogg »

People will tell you that it is heresy, but I use deep cycle batteries for my engine starting batteries, which also power my house loads.

I changed the group 27 starting batteries to group 29 deep cycle from Wally World, which are the biggest ones that would fit in my box (without modifying it too much). I run a few house loads off of them while at anchor overnight, like my anchor light, and reading lights. I do not run an inverter or anything with a high current draw. I'll run the generator for maybe 30 minutes before bed to cool-off the fridge, which brings the battery charger online to top-off the batteries too. In the morning the batteries are still fine. While the alleged not-for-starting batteries do a fine job of, well, starting their associated engine with no problem, as a matter of course I use the emergency start feature to parallel the batteries when cranking. By paralleling them, each sees half the draw they would otherwise. It should be noted that if I was cranking big diesels my thoughts would be different. For the last two years, my deep cycle batteries have cranked my small block V-8s just fine. Since it never sees house loads, I have a bona fide starting battery on my generator.

The book that I recommended in an earlier PM covers a lot of what you are addressing.
I needed a less expensive hobby, so I bought a boat!

Post Reply