Hello,
I have just began a total refit of my 1987 10 meter express. I pulled both of the 454 crusaders and am in a dilemia on what to put back in. The old engines run fine and were compression tested two years ago by my mechanic who told me they didn't need to be rebuilt yet .I just replaced the manifolds risers and elbows last years. I've had the boat for 4 years and the hour meter currently reads 675 hrs (I don't know if this is accurate on a 20+ yr old boat.
I decided to store the boat in my warehouse on boat dollies and refit it over the next 2 yrs. My dilemia is that I want to have the least amount of issues down the road and reduce the problems with using ethenol fuel. Haven't heard too many good things about rebuilt crate engines so I'm alittle worried there, May rebuild my engines but would end up replacing basically everything (carbs, cooling system electrical etc) at a big cost. I'm also considering brand new fuel injected crusader 8.1 at a cost of 13k each which really shoots my budget to heck.
Does anyone have any first hand experience either good or bad??
Thanks
Todd Pote
1987 10 meter express
Double-Pote-N-Sea
Need some advice on repower options!
Moderators: BeaconMarineBob, Moderator, BeaconMarineDon
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Danny Bailey
- Moderate User
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:44 pm
- Location: Oriental, NC
Todd
What you're facing is a complex issue and should be approached analytically to arrive at a satisfactory long term solution. If your present engines run fine they are your best economical power, however you have to consider what is the price of gas going to do in the future.
675 hours is certainly believeable on your boat. My 1980 F-36 only had 1200 hours on the engines when I pulled them out in October 07.
Ethenol gas is a pipe dream of the farmer lobbies and will never amount to anything. It takes the equivalent of 1 1/4 gallons of energy to produce 1 gallon of ethenol. The future of liquid energy is in common rail computer controlled diesels.
A new state of the art fuel injected gasoline engine would definately be more effecient than your carbureted engine....but for the cost you quote, you can almost buy a Cummins re-man diesel. But, if you convert to diesel, you will have to replace your fuel tanks if they are galvanized steel.
To have and to operate a boat of the age and size that you have is going to take buckets of money. If you don't really love the hobby and are prepared to sacrifice, sell it now before you get in any deeper.
Danny
What you're facing is a complex issue and should be approached analytically to arrive at a satisfactory long term solution. If your present engines run fine they are your best economical power, however you have to consider what is the price of gas going to do in the future.
675 hours is certainly believeable on your boat. My 1980 F-36 only had 1200 hours on the engines when I pulled them out in October 07.
Ethenol gas is a pipe dream of the farmer lobbies and will never amount to anything. It takes the equivalent of 1 1/4 gallons of energy to produce 1 gallon of ethenol. The future of liquid energy is in common rail computer controlled diesels.
A new state of the art fuel injected gasoline engine would definately be more effecient than your carbureted engine....but for the cost you quote, you can almost buy a Cummins re-man diesel. But, if you convert to diesel, you will have to replace your fuel tanks if they are galvanized steel.
To have and to operate a boat of the age and size that you have is going to take buckets of money. If you don't really love the hobby and are prepared to sacrifice, sell it now before you get in any deeper.
Danny
1980 F-36 with 6BTA 250 Cummins enjoying the Sounds and coastal waters of North Carolina
Todd,
my recommendation would be to really consider what your "realistic" plans are for the boat once done.
If your doing this becuase you just love the boat and you can't see any reason to part with it long term, I would not choose an option based on cost- but based on what would be best for those plans.
If you like the boat, but see forks in the road in the relatively near future ( ie. kids going to college, job not secure, starting to question ability to use the boat or it's costs), then I would try to find a blend of costs and benefits.
If there is a good chance this boat is not a log term partner for any reason (moving up, moving down or moving out), I'd clean up the old engines, have them fully serviced, and re-install them.
The point is, while no one see's the future, I find it hard not to consider future expectations and uncertainties when making this kind of decision.
my recommendation would be to really consider what your "realistic" plans are for the boat once done.
If your doing this becuase you just love the boat and you can't see any reason to part with it long term, I would not choose an option based on cost- but based on what would be best for those plans.
If you like the boat, but see forks in the road in the relatively near future ( ie. kids going to college, job not secure, starting to question ability to use the boat or it's costs), then I would try to find a blend of costs and benefits.
If there is a good chance this boat is not a log term partner for any reason (moving up, moving down or moving out), I'd clean up the old engines, have them fully serviced, and re-install them.
The point is, while no one see's the future, I find it hard not to consider future expectations and uncertainties when making this kind of decision.
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willietrojan
- Moderate User
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:24 pm
- Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama
Thanks Danny and Jav,
What you both said is exactly what I'm trying to decide. My wife and I purchased the boat just after my son was born so we could bring him down the Chesapeake in the summer and give him some unforgetable memories. We have consistently used the boat until this past memorial day. After two nights with a 2.5 an 5.5 yr old who would wake up each morning at 2am, take everything out of the galley and spill yogurt, mustard lemonade etc over all the carpet and cushions in the salon. That was the last time the kids were on the boat last year. I decided to put the boat up for sale last summer to my wifes dismay. We both love our boat but were going to sell it, wait about 3-4 yrs and buy another 10 or 11 meter. Since I didn't recieve any offers I considered realistic I had the boat trucked to my warehouse, bought 20k lb boat dollies on wheels and am just getting started striping the boat down to redo it.
We have decided this is going to be a long term boat (I always wanted a 13 meter but after having to do all the maintence on our boat I decided ours will take us anywhere we want to go!)
My biggest problem is that I have a tendency to go overboard (You know "this widget will work fine but the but the better one is only $$$$ more!)
I was orig looking to repower with reman diesels but was unable to find anyone who did this switch to a 10 meter. I really wanted to talk to someone before commiting to that much work. I also bought a 2008 ford diesel that gets 9mpg using $3.48 diesel fuel and started to question how much I'd really be saving if any in fuel cost.
I figure the existing engines are 20 yrs old. If I purchase longblocks I'm still transfering some 20 yr old parts over. If I purchase a rebuilt crate engine , Its still rebuilt, How many hours and how much abuse have the reused partsbeen through. If I go new, I'm really paying for it, but its new. Is it worth the extra cost?
I started this past season with my first tanks of ethonal , what a nightmare. I carry 6 extra filters at all times now but am still concerned with moisture in the fuel
Thanks Again,
Todd
What you both said is exactly what I'm trying to decide. My wife and I purchased the boat just after my son was born so we could bring him down the Chesapeake in the summer and give him some unforgetable memories. We have consistently used the boat until this past memorial day. After two nights with a 2.5 an 5.5 yr old who would wake up each morning at 2am, take everything out of the galley and spill yogurt, mustard lemonade etc over all the carpet and cushions in the salon. That was the last time the kids were on the boat last year. I decided to put the boat up for sale last summer to my wifes dismay. We both love our boat but were going to sell it, wait about 3-4 yrs and buy another 10 or 11 meter. Since I didn't recieve any offers I considered realistic I had the boat trucked to my warehouse, bought 20k lb boat dollies on wheels and am just getting started striping the boat down to redo it.
We have decided this is going to be a long term boat (I always wanted a 13 meter but after having to do all the maintence on our boat I decided ours will take us anywhere we want to go!)
My biggest problem is that I have a tendency to go overboard (You know "this widget will work fine but the but the better one is only $$$$ more!)
I was orig looking to repower with reman diesels but was unable to find anyone who did this switch to a 10 meter. I really wanted to talk to someone before commiting to that much work. I also bought a 2008 ford diesel that gets 9mpg using $3.48 diesel fuel and started to question how much I'd really be saving if any in fuel cost.
I figure the existing engines are 20 yrs old. If I purchase longblocks I'm still transfering some 20 yr old parts over. If I purchase a rebuilt crate engine , Its still rebuilt, How many hours and how much abuse have the reused partsbeen through. If I go new, I'm really paying for it, but its new. Is it worth the extra cost?
I started this past season with my first tanks of ethonal , what a nightmare. I carry 6 extra filters at all times now but am still concerned with moisture in the fuel
Thanks Again,
Todd
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TADTOOMUCH
- Moderate User
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:58 am
- Location: S.W. Michigan
Diesel versus Gas
Unless gasoline goes to $5.00 or $6.00 per gallon, I can not see the payback on a diesel powerplant switch unless the gas engines are shot.
Except for the explosion issue with gasoline there isn't any good reason for doing the switch based on fuel savings. You just won't get a reasonable payback. Leave the extra money in the market and take the earnings and buy more gasoline.
Ethanol is a fairy tale. Takes more energy to produce it than gas and it is less efficient. Oh if you are a tree hugger then go ahead and buy it but I don't fall for the man made global warming thing. Yes we have global warming but man is only about 1% at fault. The Stupid thing called the Sun is the reason. Just ask the guys on Pluto if they are warmer too.
Wait 20 years and we will be cold again like we were in the 70's.
Fix your current engines the best you can and enjoy the boat as much as you can. Have a cold beer, let the kids spill stuff, relax and enjoy life. Don't feel guilty about having the money to enjoy yourself. You worked hard for it and deserve it.
Except for the explosion issue with gasoline there isn't any good reason for doing the switch based on fuel savings. You just won't get a reasonable payback. Leave the extra money in the market and take the earnings and buy more gasoline.
Ethanol is a fairy tale. Takes more energy to produce it than gas and it is less efficient. Oh if you are a tree hugger then go ahead and buy it but I don't fall for the man made global warming thing. Yes we have global warming but man is only about 1% at fault. The Stupid thing called the Sun is the reason. Just ask the guys on Pluto if they are warmer too.
Wait 20 years and we will be cold again like we were in the 70's.
Fix your current engines the best you can and enjoy the boat as much as you can. Have a cold beer, let the kids spill stuff, relax and enjoy life. Don't feel guilty about having the money to enjoy yourself. You worked hard for it and deserve it.
I find myself in a very similar situation: I bought a 1982 10 M three years ago and have gone after it with an open checkbook. My engines are original with about 700 hours on them. They run fine. I'm secretly wishing they'd blow up so I can justify replacement with 8.1's. I would consider a diesel changeover if I could get it done for under $40k, but I don't think I can. Bottom line, it's still an old boat. With a replcement cost somewhere around $300k, I can justify quite a bit of upgrade expense, but it will still be an old boat.
Brett
Brett
I did the deisel repower and never regreted it. The fuel savings is dramatic but this alone rarely justifies things. I believe that even in this market having an eceomincal deisel boat can only help it sell. I see incredible deals on gas boats every day and deisel ones are becoming more common, but looking at actual sales, the diesels appear to be moving better.
this doesn;t means it's a wise financial decision... Most NEVER make their money back. BUT, it can be the difference between interest and no interest, and sale or no sale.
No matter what, I still say that your first step is to come to grips with what your expectations are. Until you do that, it's going to be tough to help.
I will say that Given your earlier intentions to sell, I would suggest doing as little as possible (of expensive stuff anyway- obviously clean it up and take care of any deal breakers). Then sell it and take the hit on the sale price versus spending 20k go get 10k more.
this doesn;t means it's a wise financial decision... Most NEVER make their money back. BUT, it can be the difference between interest and no interest, and sale or no sale.
No matter what, I still say that your first step is to come to grips with what your expectations are. Until you do that, it's going to be tough to help.
I will say that Given your earlier intentions to sell, I would suggest doing as little as possible (of expensive stuff anyway- obviously clean it up and take care of any deal breakers). Then sell it and take the hit on the sale price versus spending 20k go get 10k more.
Thanks Everyone! I really appreciate the responses!
I think Tadtoomuch has a great point on the diesel repower, other than the fact that the diesels would increase the speed, I realize theres no way I'll get a reasonable payback.
I was origionally looking at this repower as a monumental one time event. The engines really were not that hard to get out. I think I'm leaning towards having my engines torn down and machined. I believe I can rebuild them myself. Add some new carbs and ignition and heat exchangers and put them back in.
After meeting with a fiberglass guy today I think my budget for the engines may get reduced some.
I started my insurance survey the end of this season and the surveyor pointed out some rot in the bulkhead between the engine compartment and aft cabin, everything else was fine. Had a guy come by today to look at it and I must admit I'm alittle nervious to get his price. He said he would have to remove the entire bulkhead from keel to the top deck. and cut and grind into the stringers to tie it in properly. If its over $2000 I'll be reading up on fiberglass repair!!
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I think Tadtoomuch has a great point on the diesel repower, other than the fact that the diesels would increase the speed, I realize theres no way I'll get a reasonable payback.
I was origionally looking at this repower as a monumental one time event. The engines really were not that hard to get out. I think I'm leaning towards having my engines torn down and machined. I believe I can rebuild them myself. Add some new carbs and ignition and heat exchangers and put them back in.
After meeting with a fiberglass guy today I think my budget for the engines may get reduced some.
I started my insurance survey the end of this season and the surveyor pointed out some rot in the bulkhead between the engine compartment and aft cabin, everything else was fine. Had a guy come by today to look at it and I must admit I'm alittle nervious to get his price. He said he would have to remove the entire bulkhead from keel to the top deck. and cut and grind into the stringers to tie it in properly. If its over $2000 I'll be reading up on fiberglass repair!!
[/img]
Jav,
The wife and I did make our decision to keep this boat long term rather than sell and buy another down the road. My main goal is to make our boat as maintence free as I can (Quit laughing I know its a boat) I'm just trying to bring as many things up to date to reduce my time working on it during the season.
Jav, By the way did you do that hardtop yourself? It looks great
Thanks,
Todd
The wife and I did make our decision to keep this boat long term rather than sell and buy another down the road. My main goal is to make our boat as maintence free as I can (Quit laughing I know its a boat) I'm just trying to bring as many things up to date to reduce my time working on it during the season.
Jav, By the way did you do that hardtop yourself? It looks great
Thanks,
Todd
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RWS
- Ultimate User
- Posts: 2857
- Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:01 am
- Location: West Coast Florida
- Contact:
I was going to replace the worn out 454's with 8.1's in my 10 meter. When the numbers for the 1.25" shafts came up as marginal and the thru hulls needed to be enlarged one sizefor proper cooling te cost jump between the 8.1's and diesel became close enough to make the jump.
I had previously changed h genny out o a diesel so that part had been completed whenb the Onan died two years previous.
I never considered keeping the 454's beacuse of the lack of effeciency combined with my desire to have a troublefree refit which translated into replacing the (at the time) 22 year old engine oil coolers, heat exchangers (one was using water) transmission oil coolers, hoses, distributors, water pumps, etc, etc, etc.
My most efficient cruising speed with the 454's was 15kts. With te 315 Yanmars it's now 21-22 kts. The bigger props get her 13'beam out of the water and she rides and handles like a dream.
Regardless of the additinal cost over the Captain's Choice Crusader 8.1's the vessel will always be worth that amount more as compared to a gas burner.
The 10 & 11 meter Trojans are a well constructed, well engineered vesels offering tremendous versatility.
Perhaps I have nobrains, but for me it was a no-brainer.
Replacing the water heater, HVAC and numerous hoses, engine room lighting and fire protection and sanitation systems yields a new vessel with a superior hull design to anything you can buy today, all at a fraction of the cost.
Next will beCorian countertops and cockpit upholstery.
What an outstanding and remarkable vessel. Replacement cost with the same powerplants 16,000 BTU HVAC, wetbar, two referigherators oh and by the way, you can't find a 33' vessel with this kind of beam/space today that rides as dry or smooth as these hulls do. So you have to move upto a 36-38' vessel to gat the equivalent layout.
So that's my experience.
RWS
I had previously changed h genny out o a diesel so that part had been completed whenb the Onan died two years previous.
I never considered keeping the 454's beacuse of the lack of effeciency combined with my desire to have a troublefree refit which translated into replacing the (at the time) 22 year old engine oil coolers, heat exchangers (one was using water) transmission oil coolers, hoses, distributors, water pumps, etc, etc, etc.
My most efficient cruising speed with the 454's was 15kts. With te 315 Yanmars it's now 21-22 kts. The bigger props get her 13'beam out of the water and she rides and handles like a dream.
Regardless of the additinal cost over the Captain's Choice Crusader 8.1's the vessel will always be worth that amount more as compared to a gas burner.
The 10 & 11 meter Trojans are a well constructed, well engineered vesels offering tremendous versatility.
Perhaps I have nobrains, but for me it was a no-brainer.
Replacing the water heater, HVAC and numerous hoses, engine room lighting and fire protection and sanitation systems yields a new vessel with a superior hull design to anything you can buy today, all at a fraction of the cost.
Next will beCorian countertops and cockpit upholstery.
What an outstanding and remarkable vessel. Replacement cost with the same powerplants 16,000 BTU HVAC, wetbar, two referigherators oh and by the way, you can't find a 33' vessel with this kind of beam/space today that rides as dry or smooth as these hulls do. So you have to move upto a 36-38' vessel to gat the equivalent layout.
So that's my experience.
RWS
RWS,
Is your 10 meter a mid cabin or an express? If its a midcabin, did you run into any issues fitting bigger props with clearance issues? I Am keeping an open mind about using diesels but to make it work I would have to find a heck of a deal on a pair that would fit.
I was talking to a guy the other day that repowered his 36 jersey with brand new cats , he paid $9000 for both in the crates with gauges!!! He Bought them from a guy who didn't do enough reasearch, bought them 3 yrs ago and realized they wouldn't fit. He said he had been working on the guy for over a year to sell them low and the guy finally gave in.
Don't know if I'd ever come accross a deal like that but it would sure be nice!!!
Todd
Is your 10 meter a mid cabin or an express? If its a midcabin, did you run into any issues fitting bigger props with clearance issues? I Am keeping an open mind about using diesels but to make it work I would have to find a heck of a deal on a pair that would fit.
I was talking to a guy the other day that repowered his 36 jersey with brand new cats , he paid $9000 for both in the crates with gauges!!! He Bought them from a guy who didn't do enough reasearch, bought them 3 yrs ago and realized they wouldn't fit. He said he had been working on the guy for over a year to sell them low and the guy finally gave in.
Don't know if I'd ever come accross a deal like that but it would sure be nice!!!
Todd