too small rudders

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wowzer52
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Location: Longview, Wa.

too small rudders

Post by wowzer52 »

How do you get the rudders off an F-32? I'd like to see what it would take to have them extended or something. When my starboard engine died last week (out of fuel in that tank, gauge?) I had no steerage with just the port engine running. What a pain in the ...... had to be towed even though I had one engine running. When I pulled the boat out for bottom paint everybody that was involved, including me, was surprised at how small the rudders were. All agreed that it was no wonder I didn't have steerage with only the port side running, with engine torque and tiny rudders that only come half way down across the props. I think I need to have them extended or replaced. I wonder what it mightt cost. Anybody have any ideas or thoughts?
chucka
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Post by chucka »

I had steerage issues with my single screw F-26. The rudder looked to me like it belonged on a 19 foot ski boat. I keep my boat on a tidal river and when the current is running, it used to wallow all over the channel trying to maneuver in tight quarters at low speed.

I posted some photos below of my original rudder and the replacement that I purchased at a Marine Consignment of Wickford, RI.
http://www.marineconsignment.com/
To upgrade the rudder, I replaced the entire stuffing box, shaft and all the associated hardware.

I've seen extensions added such as on the Ksenia F-26 web page,
Rudder
A word about the rudder: many Trojan owners have found the original rudders too small and have replaced them with something bigger. Still, I met one "senior" boater, a Trojan 25 owner, who had spent years going up and down through canals and locks, using the original rudder, and he had found it essential to respect the limitations of the boat, but said that they had never restricted him from going anywhere.

My boat came with an large additional piece of metal bolted on to the trailing edge of the rudder, and the PO said that it made close quarter maneuvering much easier. I, however, was deeply troubled by the boat's handling at speed (speed meaning 16 kt!), where it pulled so hard to port that if I released the steering wheel it would go all the way over (causing an excess of drama), and after a half hour on plane my shoulder was aching from holding on for dear life.

Before-and-after pictures are on the Ksenia Photos page. (scroll down through the photos to see the rudder) http://www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26/ksenia.html

I took all sorts of advice, casual and professional, about what to replace it with, but finally thought I would just take the extension off and see how the boat handled. It handled fine.
The photos below show the orgiginal original rudder, and the replacement side by side for comparison. On my replacement, the new rudder blade is about six inches taller than the original, but this new rudder actually requires less draft than the original because the original blade was mounted below and extension that projected down almost that far from the bottom of the boat. There is one photo that shows the assembly inside the F-26 with some labels indicating how it's assembled, yours is probably similar. Note this photo was taken while I was fitting up the parts so the stuffing box isn't shown.

one other very important trick: When I replaced the rudder, the boat was sitting on blocks with jackstands in my yard (on grass). I dug a hole under the boat and lowered the rudder about a foot below grade to drop the rudder shaft down far enough to remove it from the boat, and to slip the replacement in. If your boat is on pavement - you might have to jack it up pretty high to get the rudder out!

Original Rudder on the boat:
Image

Original rudder parts: You unbolt the tiller arm and loosen the shaft collar to slide the rudder down through the stuffing box. In this photo, you can see the split pin that goes through the shaft collar above the stuffing box that needs to be driven out to remove the rudder from the boat.
Image

Old & new side by side (the replacement is almost 2x the area of the old)
Image

Inside assembly - fit up
Image

new rudder ready to get wet
Image

The bigger blade has a little more drag, I don’t think it’s significant. At the same time as I upgraded the rudder, I re-powered the boat and added a 6 inch keel extension to improve tracking stability so I can't tell you how much the bigger rudder slowed the boat down. I usually cruise around 12 knots so top speed isn't a big concern for me. With the new rudder, I can maneuver like a ballerina in the mooring field with the tide running. I can almost turn this single screw rig in her own length. Reverse is still a challenge (as with any single screw of this size)


For me, this project was 85% do-it yourself. I picked up all the parts used at the consignment shop mentioned above for about $150. I spent about $200 at a machine shop to adapt the replacement parts to my boat. The rest was sweat. Just in case you're curious, the prop in the last photo isn't new. I had my prop re-worked by OceanProps of Portsmouth, RI. They brought it back to its original specs and polished it to look like a piece of jewlery. It looked so nice that I felt bad putting it back in salt water.... (until it was submerged and i couldn't see it anymore). :D

[PS I eventually re-sold the original rudder to another member of this forum who had an accidental grounding with his boat that bent his rudder beyond repair. I think he told me he added an extension to my old rudder when he put it on his boat, similar to the one referenced above on the Ksenia web page.]

Good Luck,
Chuck
formerly
Lots A Luck
Trojan F-26 Express
Narragansett Bay, RI
jimini
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Location: Suagatuck, Michigan

Post by jimini »

Can't believe Trojan would even think about putting an undersize rudder on a boat this size!!!! What were they thinking??
You've gotta be tough if you're gonna be STUPID!

jimini
wowzer52
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rudders

Post by wowzer52 »

Wow, every time I look at trojan pictures I am totally amazed at how far ahead of there time they were and how gorgeous these boats are. No wonder there are so many old trojans still going. However, I've seen so many different rudders on them that I've come to the conclusion that it must be like everything else on a boat, personal preference. I bought a twin engine boat not only for tight maneuvering but for "get home" redundency and I've found that I have plenty of control running on the stbd engine only but none on the port engine at all which pretty much eliminates the "get home" factor. I am hoping to find a way to pull the rudders off the shaft without taking them out of the boat. I just finished having the bottom stripped and repainted and was hoping to do something with the rudders before they put it back in the water. Is there a pin or something I can drive out somewhere on the rudder, then take them in to be worked on?
chucka
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Post by chucka »

There may or may not be a pin, but I think the shaft has an interference fit (possibly heat shrunk) into the rudder blade. This means there is an interference where the shaft diameter is just a small amount (something like 0.001 inches) bigger than the diameter of the hole in the blade. During assembly the blade is probably heated to expand the hole a tiny bit, then the shaft is pressed into the hole. Removing the shaft from the blade requires a lot of force. One way to dissasemble a press fit is to heat the blade, but imerse the shaft in ice water to keep it cold. It takes a lot of heat because bronze conducts heat pretty well so the whole blade will heat up.

If the blade were just held on the shaft by a pin rather than an interference fit, it woud wobble.
formerly
Lots A Luck
Trojan F-26 Express
Narragansett Bay, RI
wowzer52
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:21 pm
Location: Longview, Wa.

rudders

Post by wowzer52 »

thanks, I'll have a talk with the marine service where the boat is dry docked and maybe they can come up with something, if not I'll wait until next time it's out of the water. I'm having boating withdrawals and need to get it back in the water right away. My wife says I'm obsessed........nahhh............well ... maybe ............hhmm :roll:
Nolbry
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too small rudders

Post by Nolbry »

Chuka, I too have a Trojan F26 for which I have been seeking a larger rudder. One issue is that all the larger used rudders that I have seen (mainly from wooden boats) have had rudder shafts/posts that are too short.

Do you know from which make and model of boat your new rudder came?

Is the shaft diameter the same as the original? Mine looks identical to your original and has a 1 inch shaft. Your replacement shaft seems to have a larger diameter than the original, in the side-by-side comparison. But if that is the case how did you get the original tiller arm and bushing to fit the new shaft?

One more thing - how did the larger rudder work for you when the boat is on a plane?

Congratulations on a wonderful modification and a great write-up with photos.

Bryan
Ottawa Canada[/list][/b]
chucka
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Post by chucka »

>Q. Do you know from which make and model of boat your new rudder came?
A. I don't know what kind of boat it came from. Actually, I bought 2 used rudders from the consignment shop to get all of the parts I needed.

> Q. Is the shaft diameter the same as the original? Mine looks identical to your original and has a 1 inch shaft. Your replacement shaft seems to have a larger diameter than the original, in the side-by-side comparison. But if that is the case how did you get the original tiller arm and bushing to fit the new shaft?
A. My original also had a 1" diameter shaft. The replacement was 1-1/4" dia. I had to replace the stuffing box, the tiller arm, and all the hardware which is the reason I bought two used rudders from the consignment shop. The rudder I installed on the boat didn't come with the hardware I needed to install it. The second used rudder I bought was a different shape, but had the same 1-1/4 shaft diameter and came with a stuffing box and tiller arm. I posted a photo of the 2nd rudder in another thread ( http://www.trojanboats.net/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=860 ) I still have the 2nd rudder in my basement (less the hardware) and would be willing to sell it for $40-45 + shipping cost.

> Q. One more thing - how did the larger rudder work for you when the boat is on a plane.
A. I find it works great on a plane. I have a Chrylser LM-318 repowered a couple of years ago. My top speed is about 18 knots at 4,000 rpm- which is just under 21 mph. This is a bit slower than the 25 mph top speed that was advertised in the original specs for the boat, but.... I rarely push the top speed. I usually cruise at about 12-13 knots and 2,800-2,900 rpm, which is just on a plane and slighly below where the secondaries on the carburetor kick in to maintain reasonable fuel economy. I also added a 6" keel extension to the hull for better tracking stability which I'm sure adds a little drag, but it made a big difference in ability of the boat to track a straight course, especially in following seas. my philosophy is that this boat is built for comfort, not for speed.

> Congratulations on a wonderful modification and a great write-up with photos.
Thanks, I'm happy to share my experience. We all learn from each other.
formerly
Lots A Luck
Trojan F-26 Express
Narragansett Bay, RI
Nolbry
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:19 pm
Location: Ottawa Canada

too small rudders

Post by Nolbry »

Hi Chucka. thanks for the prompt and detailed response. I will contact you off list about the second rudder, in which I am interested.
My (original) rudder does not have an interference fit with the rudder shaft. It is a loose fit held in place with a horizontal bolt through the rudder and shaft. It is pretty wobbly! I erroneously thought that this was how the boat originally had been fitted out, to make the rudder easy to remove and replace.

I was going to insert an image from my files, but I haven't yet figured out how to do that!

Bryan
Trojan F26
Ottawa, Canada[/img]
chucka
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Post by chucka »

Before I bought the used rudder, I located candidate parts from a catalog. As I recall, the cost for a new rudder, stuffing box and the necessary hardware was something like $750.
http://www.buckalgonquin.com/downloads/FullCatalog.pdf 12 Mb download
for Rudders, stuffing boxes & associated hardware, see pages 39-47. You have to contact one of their distributors for prices.

Chuck
formerly
Lots A Luck
Trojan F-26 Express
Narragansett Bay, RI
wowzer52
Active User
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:21 pm
Location: Longview, Wa.

rudders

Post by wowzer52 »

I too have one loose rudder. I think I'll knock the pin out and put a bolt through it until I can make up my mind if I want to change them or extend them or what. I sure appreciate all the people on this forum, makes me think harder,oww.
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