Trojan Boat Forum

OK, I know this subject has been reviewed several times however I still have a few questions. In the past we've seen discussions on installing pumps in the keel, filling the keel with epoxy, etc. What I'd like to know is how much water does the keel actually hold. When that water freezes in the winter, why does'nt the fiberglass crack due to expansion. When we restored our F-26, I noticed that the fiberglass over the keel was rather light so I added an extra layer of roving with epoxy resin to thoughen it up. Was this a bad idea since it can keep water trapped or is it a good idea since it can also keep water out.

Any thoughts?

Not sure how much is held in there, but if you keep your boat on the hill in a cold climate, it might be good to pour some anti-freeze (the biodegradable variety) down there until spring.

Paul,
When I first bought my F-26, I relocated the bilge pump under the V-birth, in front of the bulkhead. There was a small hole with rubber grommet where the float switch had been. (My keel is not "open", it has a layer of glass over it) This allowed my keel to fill with water over the years. When I replaced my cockpit deck that year, I painted the bilge bow to stern. (It was a mess when I got it, and took a long time to remove the sludge that had built up. When I relaunched in the spring, I still had that small hole and rubber grommet. When I had water in the bilge I would watch, oily water seeping out of that small hole. I ended up pumping out my keel, 1-2 gallons at the most, removed the grommet and repaired the hole with Marine Tex. At the end of the season, and after the boat was hauled, I was curious and re-opened the hole to see if any water was inside and it was dry. I resealed the hole, and it's been that way for the last 15 yrs. That being said, at the time I discovered the water in the keel, the boat was 20yrs old and it had spent its entire time in the northeast. I have no idea how long water had been in the keel, but there was never any freeze damage. I do think that sealing that hole has kept my keel dry, I could always recheck it....

I have a 28' and the keel has a drain plug on the outside to drain in the winter when it is hauled out. It also has a hole cut on the inside between the gas tanks with a 500 gph fully automatic bildge pump in the keel. It comes on and if there is any water it will pump. If not it shuts off right away. There is a switch on the dash to shut if off if you want. I take on a little water when running and it keeps it punped out. This was all installed when I bought the boat. My other two pumps never run with this set-up.

Paul

I'm oh-so familiar with the hollow keel collecting water in the F-26. I used to manually stick a small hose from an oil-change pump into that "little hole" and suck out excess water. Glassing it over will result in the water collecting and most likely backing up into the engine compartment, as this is the cause of most of the water that collects in that hollow keel area. I realized this one day when the boat was at the slip and the water was bashing up against the transom during a storm. The excess water ran into the engine compartment bilge, and followed the path down into the hollow keel. You could see it filling up.

So, what I did was cut a much bigger slot in the "false bilge" floor and opened that area up. I then removed the manual bilge pump from the hanging locker (where it was originally located as a back up to the original Lovett bilge pump that was located on the false bilge floor). I replaced that manual pump with a 12V pump and installed a push-pull switch on the instrument panel right beneath the switch for the cabin bilge pump. I ran tubing from the new pump to the hollowed out area that exposed the false keel bilge. I removed the floor in the cabin to do this. No biggie - it simply unscrews (you may have to remove carpet if it's installled over the plywood floor). Now I still get water in that keel area but simply pull a switch and drain it any time I want.

During winter layover (we're in upstate NY where it gets COLD) I pump out the keel area and mop up any leftover water with a sponge.

I would guess this entire area holds about 3-4 gallons and freezing would cause the ice to expand up and back towards the engine compartment before it ever broke through the bullet proof fiberglass keel area (remember you're dealing with at least 1/2" of fiberglass/epoxy.

Hope that helps. The set up I have works well and the total was under $200 for everything.

Randy,
Can you actually see the keel from your engine room bilge? I've actually had the whole cockpit off when I replaced it, as well as all of the cabin flooring when I cleaned and painted the bilge and I can't see my hollow keel at all. The only access to the keel was that hole with rubber grommet. My center bilge under the engine is flat, minimal clearance to the oil pan, it was like that with the chrysler as well. Next time I get down to the boat I'll take some pictures of what I'm talking about. Interesting.... I might have to open that hole up and check again. Usually my bilge is completely dry

No, you can't see the keel bilge from the engine compartment as it's covered by fiberglass and also the area is obscured by the bulkhead between the engine compartment and the cabin. There is a post about this area from a couple of years ago. I just opened up the area over the hollow keel by using a keyhole saw, starting at the small opening and working my way back towards the engine. I didn't remove the entire "false floor", just a big enough area to get the pump hose installed in the hollow keel area.

Thanks for all the replies,

Based on what you guys are saying, by adding the extra layer of glass over the keel i've probably trapped some water in there. I think what I'll do is cut an inspection hole into it and see exactly whats in there.

I would prefer to seal it off with roving & epoxy as opposed to adding another pump however if I leave it empty I'll bet water will find it's way in eventually. I'm going to look for some type of light weight filler that I can fill the keel with that wont' absorb water and then glass over it. If any one knows of a good filler, I'd appreciate the info.

Again thanks for the replies,

I wonder i you can clean it and simply shoot the expanding foam from the hardware store down there.

A friend of mine runs a rigging and marine repair business, Coastal Marine, here in Charleston. A client brought his 21' center console boat in because it was running slow. Roger checked it and found that the owner had filled the hull with packing peanuts, which had absorbed water, and the boat was 500+ pounds heavier, and sat very low in the water. He had been running offshore like this. Very dangerous.

Anyway - I'm stating the obvious - be careful of what you use ... love some insight into what others may have used.

Hi Ross,

I'm a little hesitant to put foam in the keel due to the same effect that the packing peanuts had on the boat that you talked about. I've done the stringers on a couple of boats over the years that have had expanding foam in them for floatation and both times the foam was heavily saturated with water. I will look around for a good filer and I'll be sure to post what I find out.

Thanks,

It would have to be a closed cell foam. We used to use it on lightweight race boats ... but that was 30+ years ago.

2-Part Pourable Urethane Liquid Foam, approved by the USCG, would probably work well ... http://www.buoyancyfoam.com/.

Has anyone tried this?

Good discussions on BoatDesign.Net
10 month test with foam submerged in salt water lobster tank - NO absorption:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materi ... -6494.html

Other pertinent discussions (Do's and Don'ts)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materi ... 27819.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materi ... m-116.html

West System makes a microlight fiber I think it is #404. You mix it with epoxy into a peanut butter consistency. Not sure how much you'll have to use though. I'm going to reopen the hole and inspect it as well, though last time I had checked it was completely dry but it has been awhile.

IMHO the hollow keel was designed that way to be a reservoir for water in the bilge, a place for it to collect you might say. Being a sort of sump pit area, it keeps the water in the bilge from sloshing around which would more or less, continually splash the wooden ribs , stringers and flooring of the cabin with water . Perhaps it helps to keep the wood from rotting? I would think twice before filling it in.

Here is the response on the 1.5 year test of the urthane foam submerged in salt water ...

"Capt. Its been awhile since I started this test but remember it very well. I placed the foam in the tank for a year and then pulled it out held it in Maine weather for several months to return it to the tank for 6 more months. Trying to simulate on the hard over a nothern winter haul out. My test results record that this stuff is bullet proof for a boatbuilding material. A little tricky to use. Leave plenty of room to expand. Purchased it through Fiberglass Coatings down in St Pete Fla. I also used the 8lb per sq ft. Site posted below

http://www.fgci.com/
"

ref: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materi ... post325061

I don't think the void was purposely left there with the intention of collecting water. Pumping it out, or blocking it so the water stays at a low point in the hull where you can easily pump it out with a standard bilge pump are all that realy make sense.

I think Ross is right on this one. It's a reservoir for bilge water that's going to occur one way or the other from (1) shaft drip (2) rain (3) condensation (4) all or any of the above. I also don't think it was designed for any purpose other than to provide some lateral stability as an offset to the teeny tiny rudder on these boats. There was a previous post about how engine compartment water from shaft drip migrates forward and seeps through the fg mat into the hollow keel area. As the lowest point in the boat any water will eventually get there (see above). So, if you fill it in, you get water sloshing around in the "actual" bilge and migrating forward to sit under the v berth, which also has an indent to collect water. For all the money it'll cost to fill this area up with epoxy and filler you can go my route (be reasonable - do it my way....) and pump it out either manually or via 12v pump replacing the "emergency" bilge pump that should be located in the hanging locker or head (depending on your boat).