Trojan Boat Forum

a fellow boater was telling me about zddp oil aditive and that if you have flat tapit lifters it is a must is this true

Never heard of it

never heard of it but
heres a website for you to puruse.of course i think they have something to sell. but you will learn about it. basically the zinc in the additive. ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). Zinc and phosphorus.
is it needed? i dont know but i do use stp so guess i am getting my zddp. see below

http://www.zddplus.com/

i spent a few minutes googling this and it appears stp has zddp. which has always been good stuff

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187303

a statement from stp corporation

Dear Mr. ...
Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Treatment - 4-Cylinder. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

Unfortunately, the amount of ZDDP in both types of oil treatments is proprietary information. However, I can tell you that the red bottle only contains slightly more than the blue bottle. Both products contain about 4 times the amount of what motor oils once contained. I hope this information helps you.
Again, thank you for contacting us.
Patti Copper
Consumer Response Representative
Consumer Services

I always used GM.s EOS in my gas marine engines ,

Paul - do you use EOS for break-in - or all the time?

Yes- depending on the age and technology of your engine, oil choice is important. ZDDP has been steadily decreasing and almost non existant in many newer oils for emmisions reasons. It is beleived by many that older engines, especially those with valvetrains that were desinged when ZDDP content was higher, are prone to accelerated wear in it's absence. You can buy it as an additive but there is much speculation on how much to use and how it intergrates with whichever oils you use.

A better choice in IMHO is to use an oil that already has around 1200 ppm of zddp in it. There are a few specialty oils for older engines such as Brad Penn that are designed for this. They're not cheap though. If you want a cheaper option, use an oil thats formulated for diesel engines that had ZDDP in it. The diesel oils aren't subject to the same emiisions concernes as gas engines and as such, have retained ZDDP content in greater concentrations. I beleive the last time I looked, Shell Rotella T and Delo 400 both had between 900-1200 PPM of ZDDP but it's best to check as these things can change quickly.

rossjo wrote:Paul - do you use EOS for break-in - or all the time?

Ross , I used it all the time at one time it was a additive but now its Assembly lub . The reason for the change is they don't want you using it all they time with a catalyst converter , with a boat ( unless brand new) thats no problem


I have not been using it with the diesels , but may start

I noticed its called assy. lube now - how much do you put in?

Do you find it superior to STP?

I might add it to the 454 in my 26. I only use Mercury Marine 25W-40 4-stroke oil in it - which "may" have some ZDDP (1,600PM?) in it.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/otherprodu ... ruiser.php
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... er=1842628

This fellow says it probably doesn't, since newer Mercruiser engines don't need it:

"It may have none. ZDDP protects flat tappet iron camshafts, and since essentially all NEW engines have roller followers/lifters on steel cams, there is no need for ZDDP.
If the oil has that little sunburst thingie, you can be assured it has NO ZDDP."

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-for ... 0-oil.html

Apparently, there were new 2007 regs for .1% or less ZDDP in all Diesel & pass car motor oils.

The Rotella -T I use in my diesels is supposed to have ZDDP:

"Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 with Triple Protection Technology, our API CJ-4/SM specification product, typically contains about 1200 ppm zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorous as manufactured."

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... er=1064549
so I may switch the 454 over to it as well ... or skirt the whole issue and add EOS to my Mercruiser 25W40 and be done with it (no catalytic converter on my boat - so why not?).

1 Bottle EOS is what I use to use but readind this maybe a few onces is what you need ? and maybe they did change it ?



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... er=1086277



http://www.crower.com/dl/ZDDP_clr.pdf

Humm - interesting info from Crower, but they can't do math, so I'm suspicious of the info provided:

http://www.crower.com/dl/ZDDP_clr.pdf

ZDDPlusâ„¢ contains 42,700 ppm of phosphorus and 57,300 ppm of zinc. When a 4-ounce bottle of ZDDPlusâ„¢ is added to 5 quarts of oil, it is diluted 41:1, which contributes 1047 ppm of phosphorus and 1397ppm of zinc to whatever the oil may or may not already contain.

4 ounces added to 5 quarts is 40:1 = close to 41;1 they quote. Zinc works outs to 1,432ppm.

GM EOS contains 6210 ppm of phosphorus and 6820 ppm of zinc. When a 12-ounce bottle of GM EOS is added to 5 quarts of oil, it is diluted 11:1 which contributes 565 ppm of phosphorus and 620 ppm of zinc to whatever the oil may or may not already contain.

12 ounces added to 5 quarts is 13.3:1, not 11:1. Zinc works out to 520ppm.

Torco ZEP contains 6015 ppm of phosphorus and 6783 ppm of zinc. When a 12-ounce bottle of Torco Zep is added to 5 quarts of oil, it is diluted 14.3:1 which contributes 421 ppm of phosphorus and 474 ppm of zinc to whatever the oil may or may not already contain.

12 ounces added to 5 quarts is 13.3:1, not 14.3:1. Zinc works out to 510ppm.

Good info for Joe Gibbs:

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/traini ... tzinc.html

All About Zinc

Recently there has been quite a lot of talk about ZINC, so we’re going to explain why that is as well as the difference it makes during break-in.

The word is out regarding the reduction of Zinc in today’s motor oils, but there is a lot more to the story. Specifically, not all Zinc additives and high Zinc content oils perform the same. Here are four facts related to Zinc. First, the oil additive generally referred to as Zinc is technically Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate (ZDDP). As stated in the book Lubrication Fundamentals,” In heavily loaded applications, flat tappet cam followers operate on partial oil films at least part of the time. Lubricants with anti-wear additives are necessary if rapid wear and surface distress are to be avoided. oil additive Zinc Dithiophosphate is to provide anti-wear activity for the camshaft and lifters."

Second, Zinc (ZDDP) is not a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows Zinc to protect flat-tappet camshafts and other highly loaded engine parts.

Society of Automotive Engineers’ Automotive Lubricants Reference Book states, “ZDDP is the predominant anti-wear additive used in crankcase oils, although it is a class of additive rather than one particular chemical. Sensitivity of the additive to commence giving anti-wear protection varies inversely with the thermal stability of the additive.”

As a result, the third fact is that not all Zinc (ZDDP) additives react under the same level of heat and load. Zinc has different “Burn” rates. Some Zinc additives have slower “burn” rates that require more heat and more load to activate than other Zinc additives. For example, Passenger Car Motor Oils (PCMO’s) typically feature a faster burning Zinc than Diesel Engine Oils due to the lower compression ratios found in gasoline engines compared to compression ignition diesel engines. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly. Fourth, detergent additives “compete” against Zinc in the engine. Detergents are additives that clean the engine, but detergents don’t distinguish between sludge, varnish and Zinc – it cleans all three away. The “old school” theory on engine break-in was to run non-detergent oils, and this allowed for greater activation of the Zinc additive in the oil. Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil features a low detergent formula to allow the “Fast Burn” Zinc additive package to activate faster and to full extent.

Characteristics of Zinc and Detergents determine how quickly and to what extent an oil will provide sacrificial boundary film protection for your engine.

In order to achieve seamless protection for your flat-tappet camshaft or highly loaded engine, you need to establish the presence of the correct “Burn Rate” additives on the surface of the camshaft, lifters and other highly stressed engine parts. A properly matched set of assembly lubricants and break-in oil is of high importance.

Using Unmatched Lubricants - Additive Clash:

Additive Clash


Using the Joe Gibbs Driven System:


JGD System

Joe Gibbs Driven Engine Assembly Grease places “Fast Burn” anti-wear additives on the critical wear surfaces of your engine, and the Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In Oil provides the correct balance of “Fast Burn” Zinc additives and low levels of detergents to quickly establish a sacrificial anti-wear film throughout your engine. Rapidly establishing this anti-wear film in your engine provides a lower wear break-in and extends engine parts life.

For example, using the system of Engine Assembly Grease followed by the BR Break-In oil and then using XP1 Synthetic Racing Oil, allowed Joe Gibbs Racing to double flat-tappet lifter life from 600 miles to 1200 miles!

Joe Gibbs Driven Assembly Grease followed by Break-In Oil and then Synthetic Racing Oil or Hot Rod Oil like the primer, sealer and base color of automotive paint. It really does make a difference when you apply the right products for the job in the correct order!

Regardless of the lubricants you use, it is of vital importance that you properly prime the oiling system before starting a new or re-built engine. Please follow your camshaft manufacturers’ break-in procedure for flat-tappet camshafts.

Nothing about ZDDP at Crane Cams.


Competition Cams (CompCams.com):

Lubrication

Engine Oil Selection
As we touched on earlier, another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put, today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes to the oil have only made life tougher on your flat tappet camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of the important anti-wear additives such as zinc and phosphorus, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend a high “ZDDP”, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate, content oil for the break-in procedure and regular operation. There are several companies that are now offering specialized “race/off-road” oils, high in anti-friction and anti-wear content, to combat this specific problem. These oils carry the SL rating and contain up to 1000 ppm of Zinc/Phosphorous (the Zinc content in today’s “off-the-shelf” oils have been reduced upwards of 20% since 2001 and approximately 35% since 1997).

http://www.compcams.com/information/wha ... 1204901963

http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP201 ... 10_274.pdf