Trojan Boat Forum

this weekend I had some battery issues. I think the long and short of it is I need 2 new batteries, they are 3-4 yr old.
But I will throw a few questions out.
I replaced the generator battery last week as it was at least 2 yrs old.

this weekend at the port with the shore power hooked up, everything worked and everything was fine, fired right up.
Saturday all things were fine, no problems or even hints
Sunday we pulled on the bank, hung out for several hrs, played the stereo as always etc. When we went to leave, first hint, engines turning over slowing, hit the emerency start and got 1 fired up, and then got the other to hit as well. Go home plug it back into shore power.
Monday,fired right up hooked to shore power, we are floating down the river, not really out that long, go to start, now nothing, emerency start would not work, I not getting much of any clicks, and when I do, the gauges all go backwards. In the past this is when I know my batteries are shot.
any way I fire up the genny to get the battery charger to charge them, but it did not do much if anything, and I think my battery charger is okay otherwise the boat wouldn''t fire up at the dock, right?
so now I jump the port engine from the genny battery, starts right up, I go to use emerency start and it kills the running engine.
so now I just jump both engines 1 at a time from the genny battery, both start and run good.
so I conclude I need new batteries, I figure the charger wouldn't charge them because it is too slow or it wasn't turning on as it was reading there isn;t a load on here so no need to turn on. I do have the genny battery wire into the charger.
I know this got long, any other thoughts??

Genny battery should not be connected to the charger!! It is charged when the genny runs only and is not used other than to start genny.

You do not say what voltage your batteries are at when you consider they need to be charged... it seems to me that you just charge when you plug in back at the dock?
You need to watch battery Voltage and recharge when the Volts show 50% charge status. around 12.10 Volts. I run my genny every morning and night when I am out so I can charge batteries and have hot coffee.

Once your batteries get that dead I would just change them. Then start a good monitoring process so you do not discharge them below 50% charge.... going lower than 50% will shorten the life dramatically.

Some reading...
http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm

Genny battery should not be connected to the charger!! It is charged when the genny runs only and is not used other than to start genny"

can I ask why? is it a safety issue? I don't run my genny too often so I like to keep the battery charged. We've had it hooked this way for many yrs.

I just hook the shore power to the boat when I come in, I leave the charger on as I assume it will charge the batteries and when they are charged it turns it self off. I usually get 3-4 yrs from my starting batteries.
thanks for the reading.

Main reason is gennys charge their battery when running... so if you run them and also charge them using your aux charger you are likely to cause harm... and confuse the regulators as their are two sources of charge amps.

I guess not using your genny much may be the root of your problems... they like to be run daily, makes them run trouble free and batteries last longer when regularly charged before discharging too much.

Why do you think the battery will loose charge when not being used? If it was treated correctly (like being charged by genny only ) it should be ready to work at any moment.

My starting batteries are in their 4th yr as is my house and genny battery.. they hold their charge all winter while left in the boat! This is because of how I treat them.... for me they are in fact the least thing I worry about on my boat

In my opinion most people's battery problems are caused by abuse that they don't even know they are doing harm....
just how I see it from my side....

My generator has the option to turn off it's 10 amp charging circuit. This allows me to have the genny's battery attached to the third bank of my 20 amp smart charger which provides more efficient charging and keeps the batteries topped up when I'm not around the boat. Like Ready 123, while on the hook I run the generator for 2 hrs every morning to make coffee, charge the batteries and make hot water.

Have you checked to ensure your alternators are putting out?

I have found that leaving your charger on all the time while on shore power shortens battery life. I use a 5 watt solar panel for each battery and have had as much as 7 years life out of a battery. I only turn the charger on when using a lot of DC items, either at the dock or with the genny going. I have not yet met a 'smart charger'. They are all dumb and will fry your batteries.

Slugo your on the right track I would you have bad battery's (or bad connections),but check your alt first . nothing wrong at all with having a charge on you gen battery , In fact on some gensets thats the only way they charge . But most have a charging system so its a good idea to turn of the charger(to the gen set) when running the genset if yours has a charging system .

Keeping the battery at full charge is the key to a long life . A smart charger is the way to go . some of the older chargers would over charge the battery's and shorten their life

If you have an older style ferroresonant transformer type charger, you shouldn’t leave it on during the week while away from your new batteries. They’re great at bringing a low battery back up to par but their physical characteristics make them poor at maintaining a proper float voltage usually resulting in overcharging. Overcharging falls into the battery killer category. Battery manufacturers love these. If you’re going to leave the charger on all the time, get a smart charger. They go through several cycles, typically 3 or 4, and maintain a proper float voltage to overcome a battery’s inherent discharge which increases with temperature. Having said all that, things are changing, and new ferroresonant type chargers are coming about but with all the electronics needed to overcome said charging characteristics, they’re basically smart chargers!

My take on the genny battery charging is this; say I’m anchored out for a weekend of fun and using the house bank for the party essentials. Eventually I turn the genny on to operate the charger and bring the house bank back up to snuff (along with making coffee etc.) If my charger puts out a total of 40 amps that’s divided as needed per bank, why would I want to steal some of that from the house bank which will need it the most to top up a genny battery? Charging a diminished bank takes longer than one thinks. Why would I want to eliminate the genny as a charging source for its own battery? Hooking up the charger to the genny battery only makes for longer charging times on all other banks which is unessessary when you already have a genny that will put out 10 amps for its own battery. The trick to keeping the genny battery topped up is to use the genny often; it’s good for the genny and good for the battery.

Agree with just about all of the above.

1. Check the alternators. They may have shorted out and you're actually running the engines on battery power when underway.
2. Smart charger is the way to go to ensure adequate charge without frying the battery electrolyte. If you have flooded type batteries also check the fluid levels once in a while.
3. I've mentioned getting an ACR (Blue Seas) which constantly monitors the state of charge on all your batteries, can be switched manually to connect all banks if necessary (emergency start). I installed one a couple of years ago, and basically just leave the batteries switched on the house bank. The ACR monitors the charge of both house and engine banks and senses what's needed from either the battery charger of the alternator if underway (I have a single engine).
4. Your batteries should last 4-5 seasons if properly maintained. I'm a big fan of Maxx 29s sold at Wally Mart for under $90 each (they used to be under $70 a couple of years ago.....I think the word's getting out about them). Better batteries should and could last longer. There are a million posts and internet blogs on marine batteries.
5 I learned about batteries and electrical systems the hard way over the past 11 years I've had the mighty Blue Heron. The ACR was by far the best investment I ever made.

Big D wrote: Hooking up the charger to the genny battery only makes for longer charging times on all other banks which is unessessary when you already have a genny that will put out 10 amps for its own battery. The trick to keeping the genny battery topped up is to use the genny often; it’s good for the genny and good for the battery.

The reason that I prefer to have my gennerator battery hooked up to the smart charger at all times is simple, the system takes care of itself.

I like the fact that while my boat is tied up at the dock, all of my batteries are being maintained by the charger. Although it's true that some of the output from the charger will be sacrificed to top up the genny battery after starting it up while on the hook, these are only a few amps and are recoverd within 15-20 minutes of gennerator running time. (unless you have a hard to start generator )

If I wanted to have the gennerator to charge it's own battery, I'd have to install a switch on the charger lead to disconnect it from the gen battery and switch the gen's own charger back on. Although this sounds simple, it creates the opportinity to have 1 or both of these switches left in the wrong position which could result in a dead battery.

In short, the charger method works well for me and has never left me with a dead gen battery.

You definitely have to go with what works for you. This is what works for me: 1 dedicated port engine battery, 1 dedicated starboard engine battery and 1 house bank all charged by a 3 bank 40 amp smart charger. Engine batteries run their respective engines and their gauges but are completely isolated from all other systems. The port alternator charges the port engine battery and the house bank through an ACR. The starboard engine charges the starboard engine battery only. There is an emergency start solenoid in the system. The genny has and charges its own dedicated battery. It is an older spec Onan without a starter (uses internal windings) so it draws a lot more to crank than newer models but I have yet to have battery issues with the above set up. I’ve had my batteries for years, and they have never let me down, haven’t even used the emergency switch.

If I ever have an issue with a good genny battery that lets me down, then I will consider a way to charge the battery with the charger (genny not running). I would not eliminate the genny as a charging source while it is running. I’m sure it can be done with a relay but I just haven’t had the need to.

Sluggo,

All have provided good advice, especially on the old technology charger vs. the new ones.

That will make the single biggest difference in you rbattery life over time.

On My 1983 International with 2 engine batteries and one genny battery I did the following and have eliminated all battery issues as a result.

1.isolated the genny battery completely (it was originally charged by the port engine alternator)
2.added a simple battery selector switch to tie the genny battery to the port engine for two reasons a) to allow me to tie it to the port battery for emergency start and b) to allow the port engine to charge the genny battery if needed(back to factory)
3. replaced the old charger with a Xantrex 3 bank charger and a LED dash mounted charge indicator panel.
4. Ran a third leg from the Xantrex charger to the genny battery
5.added an analog voltmeter with a 3 position toggle switch to the dash. This way at any moment I can instantly check the voltage of each battery individually.

With this setup the genny batt is dedicated solely to the generator and a fourth emergency 3500gph bilge pump. Otherwise it is completely out of the loop and cannot be drained unless I manually turn the battery switch connecting it to the port battery.

I know that genny will always start even if the other 2 batteries are dead.

I can still use the emergency start feature if I need to PLUS if necessary, I can tie the genny to the port battery, with that manual switch, then hit the emergency start feature, resulting in all three batteries being tied together.

BEst of all worlds.

Also, I mark the date on each battery and when they reach thier 4th season, they are replaced regardless of condition. I like t replace one every year or so, that way I always have two that are two years old or so in service.

Hope this helps.

RWS

RWS wrote:Sluggo,


On My 1983 International with 2 engine batteries and one genny battery I did the following and have eliminated all battery issues as a result.
3. replaced the old charger with a Xantrex 3 bank charger and a LED dash mounted charge indicator panel.


RWS

I ordered a Xantrex 60amp with LED panel and Battery temp sensor, so I guess I am on the right track

Doug,

If you are running three batteries, get a three gang voltmeter. Run a .5 amp fused lines from each battery to the meter.

Take it from me, it's a lifesaver out on the water.

http://bluesea.com/files/images/products/8015.jpg

Mine is on the bulkhead at the helm and I can see the status of each battery at any given moment. Underway, on the hook, at the dock or on the lift.

Priceless.

It has saved my butt many times, allowing me to correct a potential problem before it becomes one.

RWS