starter ring gear has moved?

g36 · Post by **g36** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:35 am

ok thought i had a a starter problem but now wondering if someone has any expereince with this. 78 f32 with chrysler lm318. port engines that runs counterclockwise. the starter is mounted aft of the flywheel.
it appears looking through the inspection port that the starting ring gear has moved forward toward the engine away from the starter about 1/2"-3/4". this is compared to the other engine where there is no space. the starter ring is against the flywheel? sorry if terminlogy isnt correct. i am an electronics person and very shade tree mechanic. whats happening is the starter is not engaging with the starter ring on the engine and the starter is just spinning. taking a screw driver to the starter ring i am able to rotate the engine so i know that the starter ring is still making the engine turn but is there supposed to be some space here? right now i can see a roll pin that connects the flywheel and ring gear but as stated the space is what appears to be my problem. . has the starter ring just slid on these roll pins? what i am thinking is disconnecting the engine and sliding it forward to get to the starter ring. does this sound logical? are the roll pins the only thing holding this ring in place or is bolted and bolts have come loose or broken?? any thought or comments are welcome

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:12 am

The ring gear is pressed on the flywheel and should not move , but its possible . there should be no pins holding it on its just pressed on . The normal way to install it is to heat the gear up and then tap it on the flywheel . many shops use a torch . doing it at home is to put the ring gear in the oven at the highest temp give some time and put it on the flywheel ( may need to tap it on ) this must be done quickly be for it cools down . some people tack weld it but I see no need to in most cases .if the old one moved and still felt tight . maybe tap it back on and tack weld it

I would like to see a photo of you problem as something seem wrong . if you can post one or email it would be a big help .

Is this a rear mount starter ? ( mounted on the bell housing ? ) if so the starter could have been pushing it off . If its in good shape try taping it back on and tack welding in a few spots . of course it will have to be removed to do this

Again Photos the roll pin thing worries me as the ring gear has none . There maybe roll pins in the flywheel as its the same flywheel use on a standard transmission truck/car and they use the pins to line up the clutch .

g36 · Post by **g36** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:41 am

yes prowelersfish i will see about a pic. i have been reading and everywhere i have read it says the same as you about how the ring gear is installed. but there is definetly something going on here. the starter is a direct bolt on 2 holes no shims. should be idiot proof but maybe not. i have a friend with 318's i was going to see if he will let view the inspection port on his engines and see what his looks like. i have found no reference of anybody on the internet with this issue yet.
i just dont get whats going on. theres definetly a gap that is not there on my other engine

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:57 am

the hardest part is getting the flywheel out . reinstall the or replace the gear is easy . I have replaced a lot of ring gears on boats, cars and trucks . if you need to replace it remember its the same as a manual trans on car or a truck just count the teeth on the gear.

Stripermann2 · Post by **Stripermann2** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:31 am

In my years, I too as Paul, have seen the ring gear move and it is pressed on.

With that said, I also have seen the flywheel bolts come loose or out completely but one or two and the flywheel will no longer be centered on the crank but askewed enough where the starter bendix will not engage the ring gear.

Keep us posted.

kallen · Post by **kallen** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:43 pm

No easy fix here. Remove the transmission and bell housing and see what is going on. movinging the engine forward causes more problems with possible broken lag bolts and engine alignment.

foofer b · Post by **foofer b** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:48 pm

Sounds like a big job. Better get some beer!

g36 · Post by **g36** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:11 pm

here are some pics i took tonight.any thoughts?
i decided to leave the transmission alone and move the engine forward. to me it seems less likely to affect engine alignment this way because upon reassembly you will be bolting everything up tight again. no problem with the lag bolts and i can tell the stringers are really in good shape. but we will see if my choice is right or wrong . tonight i removed just about everything that needs to be removed to do so. really was no big deal and tomorrow will lift the engine and move it forward and then this mystery will come to light.

my finger is in the gap

roll pin and gap

another pic of gap

this is the other engine notice no gap
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oldboat1 · Post by **oldboat1** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:44 pm

I'm guessing from your earlier post that you pulled the starter in the first place because it appeared to be spinning, but not turning the engine. I think I would want to insure that the starter is not the culprit before getting into engine repairs. It may be that the bendix gear is not operating properly -- may need to pull the starter and take it into a shop just to bench test it. If it is working properly, by the way, the starter gear will probably be stuck at its forward position (position where it engages the flywheel). Without the counter revolution of the flywheel in the starting process, the starter gear would likely remain in that position. If you pull the starter and find the gear in its forward position, that would indicate that it is working properly -- but not engaging the flywheel.

I had a Chris Craft 305 that required lateral shimming to move the starter gear into proper postion to engage the ring gear. It could be that you have a similar issue. Aside from damage to teeth of the ring gear though, I think it is unlikely that there is a flywheel issue -- at least would not assume that to begin with.

oldboat1 · Post by **oldboat1** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:52 pm

hmmm. hadn't seen the pics before posting, and see what you mean. I wonder, though, if it's a meaningful difference -- just would hate to see all that work before finding that the problem was a starter bendix gear.

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:16 pm

Looks like you'll be heating up a ring gear. Maybe even a new one. I'd check that one carefully before deciding to put it back on. As mentioned, check your starter too. The splines on the tranny aren't the easiest things to line up at the best of times, I find it easier to manipulate the tranny for install rather than the engine but every app is different. Keep us posted.

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:38 pm

Needs a new ring gear for sure , The teeth are damaged and it may have come off before . That roll pin is not factory , at least I never seen that , you may even need a fly wheel if the new ring is not a tight fit . I would tack it in a few spot to be safe .

A lot of work work because a poor (half a... ) repair before.

alexander38 · Post by **alexander38** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:34 am

had that happen to one of my international 444t's we figured the starter hung up and heated up the gear and pushed/worked it off the fly wheel. I now have them Tig'd weld them 1/4" tacks

g36 · Post by **g36** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:39 am

thanks for the responses.
yes the starter spun one day while trying to get home. so we came home on one engine.great thing about having two engines.
took the starter off and it went to the shop. guy told me he didnt see anything wrong so back to the boat. he did spin the bendix back in and i installed it. did the same thing. hit the internet.no one around here could help me out with the starter drive. they would have to order it. estimates around $65. debating heavily on just ordering a rebuilt starter but best price was around $255 shipped. i found a place in michigan that rebuilds and sells starter drives at a very reasonable price and ordered that. installed it, very very simple and tried it on the boat again. same thing starter is spinning no engagement. then for what ever reason i took a light and got at the right angle and could see through the inspection port the teeth were not getting to the starter ring and i noticed the gap. i guess that would have been obvious to some. so i looked at the other engine and there was no gap at all. a friend of mine also has chrysler 318's in his boat and i went over yesterday before starting on mine to make sure. there was no gap at all on his either. so that helped me make my decision to get this apart. i should know something this evening when i slide the engine.

Stripermann2 · Post by **Stripermann2** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:59 am

I haven't seen a flywheel with pins holding the ring gear from spinning or to keep it in place before...

I would pull the trans back, remove the flywheel housing and replace the flywheel complete. Below is the schematic, showing the ring gear and flywheel as one piece. The part number you need is 2846925.