New guy looking to buy a F-26

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MrWesson
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New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by MrWesson » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:42 pm

First off I've done quite a bit of research(few days worth) and its good to finally sign up. I've owned 4 boats but biggest being a 20' center console.

This may come across long winded but I don't want to leave anything out.

My wife and I are looking into a boat that can accommodate 6-8 people on a sandbar trip and sleep us and our dog overnight occasionally. I like to fish but its not a priority. I like the trojan's and they seem to be a bargain. I steered away from the F32 because I like the idea of running 1 engine vs 2(keep fuel costs down). I stay nearshore in bays, rivers and less than 10-15 miles offshore(gulf).

Boat in question is a 1975 F26 with a 318. The new owner removed the engine and had it rebuild(didn't need it but for piece of mind), New bottom paint, trim tabs, fuel tank flush, Shore power, fridge, bilge pumps etc. boat is currently stored in a wet slip and I have heard the engine run(purrs and starts easy) Sea trial has been offered. Asking price is $8,000 obo
The current owners quickly upgraded to a 35' boat because of his wife(its nearby). The guy seems pretty straightforward and has a reputation in the area. The boat was from michigan and brought down by the previous owner. He kept it in dry storage for a long time and the current owner said he noticed it 11 years ago and it wasn't being used much(covered as well). He expressed interest to the owners of the marina and after a few years he wanted to sell. The previous owner claimed to never take the boat out to the ocean and ran it around in the river.


First off the boat has wooden decks which based on research points toward a sea raider but the serial number points towards a F-26(261-5058). What gives?

The floor has some flex(compared to fiberglass) to it but upon inspection it is very sold and has no rot. The boat was surveyed by the current owner(bought october 14') and showed me where they drilled the stringers and some other things. He also claimed that the wood is very hard and had trouble screwing into it.

There's some flex around the front hatch which didn't seem to pressing but should probably be addressed at some point(no fear of falling through at 220lbs).

The draft doesn't lend itself well to visiting islands in the area. So if you don't have a dingy and with a 2.5' Draft do you just swim to shore?

Doesn't have AC and I need AC. I looked at some options hear and elsewhere. I would probably install a window unit into the door(seen it here) but what about power to run it? If I did install a Generator where would I put it?


PROS
Great overall condition
Rebuilt engine(120hrs/400 original)
Every electrical item works(even original ones).
Already at my home base(don't have to drive hours to look at boats and get them home)
Some new stuff(fridge, Battery maintainer,battery, microwave).
Plumbed for washdown(with attachment) I think someone stole the actual pump.

CONS
No AC.
Not sure about the price compared to other F26's but the rebuild adds some value(120hrs since).
No generator. Need a way to run the AC while on the hook.
Has a porto toilet and unsure about what that entails(know it grosses me out). Not sure how well it will "work".
Also no pressurized water, each sink has a hand pump and has a 40gal holding tank. I'd like a shower.
70 Gallon tank is slightly limited on range(figuring about 1mpg)
Soft spot near the front hatch. I can but hate working with fiberglass(actually its the resin that sucks).
Want a swim platform. Was quoted 1200 for a custom fiberglass one. Maybe could find something cheaper though.

The boat would be due for a sea trial(owner said no problem) and at least a very through looking over by me and possibly a survey. I'm hesitant about spending $500 of a survey for a $8,000 boat that runs good. I doubt I'd own the boat for more than 2 years(probably a year or so due to potential relocation)

Important questions...
What difficulty am I looking at installing AC(do I need Genset?/already plumbed for a marine AC BTW)?
Is 8,000 too much?
Whats up with a F26 with wood aft decks(verified by Serial)?

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prowlersfish
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by prowlersfish » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:41 pm

If your going to need AC on the hook then you will need a genset . I believe Some one installed one on a F25 or 26 here . ( one of the other Pauls ?) Not a easy or cheap job . Is it worth it on a boat your only going to keep 2 years ?

On the wood decks a lot of early F boats had them
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by MrWesson » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:04 pm

Depends on the effort.

Being in Florida it will make the cabin unusable from about 10-7 from may until October.

Its either buy this boat and adapt an AC unit or buying something else.

Seems as though an inverter will require too many batteries.

Currently doing some research on inverter generators.

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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by captainmaniac » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:38 pm

People don't typically rebuild engines 'for peace of mind'. Rebuild costs are usually in the 5K or more range, so if you spend 5K then sell it for 8K.... I would want to be very careful and look it over very closely. Sag in the decks - The teak may look fine, but how bad is the framing and ply under the teak? Do you have mushrooms and mould growing? If it flexes, something is soft. That's not a wood vs fiberglass thing. That's a 'something is soft somewhere' thing. [My father had a 1969 wooden Trojan Sea Skiff for more than 20 years - I know what solid decks feel like on a 100% woodie [and they were solid], and I know what decks feel like when the ply beneath them is starting to go [ie mushy]]

For me... (and this is for me -- might not be the same for you)... a 26 with genny and A/C added is going to be tight on space. There is not a lot of space under the cockpit floor to try to add anything else in, and you don't want to eat up cabin space for stuff. Yes, you will burn a bit more fuel on an F32, but you also have a spare engine/prop/rudder if you crunch something, and 2-3x the living accommodations, and easily 2-3x the sea keeping ability (which could come in handy when the gulf gets sloppy). If you are looking for an 'in between' solution, look at some F30's. Very much like the 26, with more space, and potentially dual engine options that are more fuel efficient than the F32.

If you are looking to troll while fishing, you can always just shut one engine down on the F32 and troll off of the other.

For fresh water boats that move to salt you need to keep your eyes open... most fresh water boats are raw water cooled. In salt you usually want closed cooling systems to keep the salt and 'critters' out of the narrow passages in the engine. What does this one have? Sounds like your previous boats were outboards... inboard is a different animal.

Don't just accept previous owners offer of a sea trial - whatever boats you decide you are serious about, demand a sea trial, have a mechanical inspection done on the engine(s), and get a survey so you know what you are getting into. Never trust someone else's survey. They may have come to understand their surveyor missed a bunch of stuff, and that's why they are trying to sell! The surveyor may be a buddy, and write up a bunch of false stuff. Surveyors are very rarely successfully held responsible for what they 'miss'.... so unless you hire the guy yourself you never know if you can rely on what you are told. Spend the money and hire someone knowledgeable, reputable, and that you trust to help you understand if this is a good investment, and safe vessel. Don't just trust the guy trying to unload.... If you are looking for a runabout to zip along the river that's one thing. If you want to take a half dozen friends 15 miles offshore, you need to know your boat is in good enough condition and rough water worthy for that purpose to do that and get everyone back to shore safely.

Sorry for coming across as a 'Debbie downer', but I am a big proponent of safe boating. I have seen too many people get hurt or die for stupid reasons. Some people take silly shortcuts because they don't understand the risks or ramifications. Some do it just to save money. I just hope you do what's right to make sure you understand the boat that you are getting in to, that you don't get screwed over in the process, and that you ensure you are taking your passengers out on a safe ride whenever you do.

Having said all that -- hope you find what you are looking for! Just not really sure this is it...
Last edited by captainmaniac on Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by prowlersfish » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:53 pm

Good post Capt M

MrWesson he offers very good advice


I will add also portable gen ( inverter generators ) Have no place on a boat .
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by gitchisum » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:59 pm

Based on what you describe "how you will use the boat", you will not be hapy with this F-26. I owned one up until last summer, and you are not going to comfortably cruise 6-8 people in the cockpit.

Mine was a 77, with 233 M/c. I did not have a genny, and It would be a tight fit getting one in there. I know others on here have, but I have to imagine you are going to invest several thousand for genny and reverse cycle ac ( cruisair unit).

it will be difficult to recoup that cost in 1-2 years.

Now for the problems. That flexing foredeck around the hatch is rotting core. most likely the fron windows are leaking and letting water into the core, at a very minimum, the hatch hinges are leaking. Search this forum and you will find several threads on repairing this ( or ask MattSC ). I spent 1200 repairing my foredeck, and that was doing most of the work myself ( except paint) That will not get better on its own, only worse.

I would plan on spending at least 5,000 over and above the 8,000 to meet your needds and be able to resale when you want to move on. ( I bought mine for 6 and spent another 7 on it, then sold it for 11) , but it was a great education.

Good luck and post pics
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by captainmaniac » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:10 pm

[quote="gitchisum"I would plan on spending at least 5,000 over and above the 8,000 to meet your needds and be able to resale when you want to move on. ( I bought mine for 6 and spent another 7 on it, then sold it for 11) , but it was a great education.

Good luck and post pics[/quote]

Don't want to say 'told ya so!' but do want to reinforce the concept of 'hire people yourself to understand what you are looking at'. And make intelligent decisions from there. I'm done.

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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by MrWesson » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:49 pm

captainmaniac wrote:People don't typically rebuild engines 'for peace of mind'. Rebuild costs are usually in the 5K or more range, so if you spend 5K then sell it for 8K.... I would want to be very careful and look it over very closely. Sag in the decks - The teak may look fine, but how bad is the framing and ply under the teak? Do you have mushrooms and mould growing? If it flexes, something is soft. That's not a wood vs fiberglass thing. That's a 'something is soft somewhere' thing. [My father had a 1969 wooden Trojan Sea Skiff for more than 20 years - I know what solid decks feel like on a 100% woodie [and they were solid], and I know what decks feel like when the ply beneath them is starting to go [ie mushy]]
Soft, Mushy or saggy definately don't describe what I was trying to say.

If a 220lb man jumps up and down it feels different than when I would do the same thing with a fiberglass sportfish(only other boats I've been near or like this boat).

I looked under and all around with a flashlight and didn't see any dark spots or mold(obvious rot). That being said that doesn't mean that it isn't somewhere I couldn't see.
For me... (and this is for me -- might not be the same for you)... a 26 with genny and A/C added is going to be tight on space. There is not a lot of space under the cockpit floor to try to add anything else in, and you don't want to eat up cabin space for stuff. Yes, you will burn a bit more fuel on an F32, but you also have a spare engine/prop/rudder if you crunch something, and 2-3x the living accommodations, and easily 2-3x the sea keeping ability (which could come in handy when the gulf gets sloppy). If you are looking for an 'in between' solution, look at some F30's. Very much like the 26, with more space, and potentially dual engine options that are more fuel efficient than the F32.
I totally understand what you are saying. Redundancy in a boat this size is worth alot. That being said I don't plan on wandering far from my home dock or offshore. Coming from the fishing boat world I do tons of research on the weather/wind/sea conditions so that will play as well. 3' seas? I'm out. I also will not own a boat without seatow.

In all honesty this boat is a simple sell to the wife and she's no idiot when it comes to this stuff. She knows bigger boat = bigger money. I'd venture an educated guess that if I push hard for a 32' boat I'll surely lose that battle anyway. The F26 has plenty of space for us.

After reading I think the best plan of action for AC will be
This
Image

PLUS
Image

Either running the AC directly off the generator or using it to keep everything charged up. Details need working out though.


If you are looking to troll while fishing, you can always just shut one engine down on the F32 and troll off of the other.

For fresh water boats that move to salt you need to keep your eyes open... most fresh water boats are raw water cooled. In salt you usually want closed cooling systems to keep the salt and 'critters' out of the narrow passages in the engine. What does this one have? Sounds like your previous boats were outboards... inboard is a different animal.


This boat is kept on a fresh water river which keeps things flushed and fresh. That being said I still have to assume some saltwater usage. This boat and from what I understand all F26's are raw cooled. They seem to be working okay around here. Manifolds and risers will have to replaced accordingly(ive read 4-6 years).

Fishing is pretty far down the list but I was thinking of just anchoring or drift fishing.
Don't just accept previous owners offer of a sea trial - whatever boats you decide you are serious about, demand a sea trial, have a mechanical inspection done on the engine(s), and get a survey so you know what you are getting into. Never trust someone else's survey. They may have come to understand their surveyor missed a bunch of stuff, and that's why they are trying to sell! The surveyor may be a buddy, and write up a bunch of false stuff. Surveyors are very rarely successfully held responsible for what they 'miss'.... so unless you hire the guy yourself you never know if you can rely on what you are told. Spend the money and hire someone knowledgeable, reputable, and that you trust to help you understand if this is a good investment, and safe vessel. Don't just trust the guy trying to unload.... If you are looking for a runabout to zip along the river that's one thing. If you want to take a half dozen friends 15 miles offshore, you need to know your boat is in good enough condition and rough water worthy for that purpose to do that and get everyone back to shore safely.
He offered to let me take the boat out alone. This is probably out of my comfort zone but a sea trial would be a prerequisite(is for any boat I buy). He didn't flinch at a survey(he brought it up). The boat was kept at the marina I keep my other boat at and the guy bought the boat from the marina owner(who I know) and unless he did something horrible to the boat the marina owner has vouched that this boat checks out(was part of the survey). These are things that ease my mind into the next phase(either myself crawling all over the boat for an hour or so or having a survey). These are reputable people.

I'm still on the fence about the survey but I understand what you are saying. I definitely fall under a runabout to zip along the river. Those half dozen friends would be taken to the sandbar at the mouth of the river that opens up to a bay. If the seas are more than 2-3 I'll be in the river. This is a very cheap boat for what it is and while I understand the value of a survey do you really think its necessary for a $8,000 boat for the above purposes? I'll have to check on survey pricing and costs of hauling the boat out.





Sorry for coming across as a 'Debbie downer', but I am a big proponent of safe boating. I have seen too many people get hurt or die for stupid reasons. Some people take silly shortcuts because they don't understand the risks or ramifications. Some do it just to save money. I just hope you do what's right to make sure you understand the boat that you are getting in to, that you don't get screwed over in the process, and that you ensure you are taking your passengers out on a safe ride whenever you do.
Having said all that -- hope you find what you are looking for! Just not really sure this is it...[/quote]

Don't apologize I asked for advice and got good stuff.

I'm coming into this with being able to afford something much more expensive but hesitant until I find out if the cabin boat thing is for us. That's another reason I don't think I'll have this boat long term. If the wifey enjoys it I'd bet on a full restoration or a boat in the $50,000 range.


As far as the rebuild goes this boat was sitting up for a very long time and the guy who bought it recently was concerned about gaskets being dry rotted and cracked. He said it ran good before hand but he wanted the piece of mind. The marina owner who I know said they pulled the motor with their forklift. The owner has all receipts.

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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by MrWesson » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:58 pm

gitchisum wrote:Based on what you describe "how you will use the boat", you will not be hapy with this F-26. I owned one up until last summer, and you are not going to comfortably cruise 6-8 people in the cockpit.

Mine was a 77, with 233 M/c. I did not have a genny, and It would be a tight fit getting one in there. I know others on here have, but I have to imagine you are going to invest several thousand for genny and reverse cycle ac ( cruisair unit).

it will be difficult to recoup that cost in 1-2 years.

Now for the problems. That flexing foredeck around the hatch is rotting core. most likely the fron windows are leaking and letting water into the core, at a very minimum, the hatch hinges are leaking. Search this forum and you will find several threads on repairing this ( or ask MattSC ). I spent 1200 repairing my foredeck, and that was doing most of the work myself ( except paint) That will not get better on its own, only worse.

I would plan on spending at least 5,000 over and above the 8,000 to meet your needds and be able to resale when you want to move on. ( I bought mine for 6 and spent another 7 on it, then sold it for 11) , but it was a great education.

Good luck and post pics
I've been there rebuilding a deck in a 20' Aquasport. It isn't fun I know.

That being said its the only spot of concern and isn't that bad now(jumped around on it). I've had reasonable success in drilling holes 2-3" apart and filling with epoxy resin with a syringe. I don't plan on having the boat forever but If I decide to keep it more than a year or so I will fix it properly.

Gensets and marine ac units are pricey to say the least but like the picture I posted above things can be done cheaply but have that good enough look to it. Either a used Carry on AC or that door mounted idea I posted of a F26 from this forum. Inverter generators are becoming more and more popular in cruisers and sailboats due to being lightweight and quiet. For the size and BTU I would need I could get about 8 hours or more out of one tank of gas in that genny.

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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by ready123 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:39 am

MrWesson wrote: I'm coming into this with being able to afford something much more expensive but hesitant until I find out if the cabin boat thing is for us. That's another reason I don't think I'll have this boat long term. If the wifey enjoys it I'd bet on a full restoration or a boat in the $50,000 range.
Only comment I will make here is will an F-26 really answer that question of is the cabin thing for you?

Look at the space in an F-32 cabin....

Image

Image
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by prowlersfish » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:27 am

I am going to replete my self portable generators have no place on a boat . But if your going to use one anyway , where are you going to put it ? and use it ? A swim platform would be about the only place you could put is and not have the fumes go into the boat . so factor in that too .

The advice to go larger is sound for your needs , your maybe able to find something already with a/c and a genset . I stayed at marinas in very hot weather until I got a boat with a genset . I have a lot of friends that are cruising the islands now and they don't use the AC , but again its not summer yet .
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by MrWesson » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:52 am

prowlersfish wrote:I am going to replete my self portable generators have no place on a boat . But if your going to use one anyway , where are you going to put it ? and use it ? A swim platform would be about the only place you could put is and not have the fumes go into the boat . so factor in that too .

The advice to go larger is sound for your needs , your maybe able to find something already with a/c and a genset . I stayed at marinas in very hot weather until I got a boat with a genset . I have a lot of friends that are cruising the islands now and they don't use the AC , but again its not summer yet .
Good point I'm going to look around.

Seems like 1mpg on the F32 would be tough. Most people seem to be crusing at around 18 and burning 22gph or more. Some typical destinations.. around the corner to hang on a Spring fed river(mostly to get out of the marina) 8 miles to the sandbar we like, 40 miles to island hop(probably once every couple months). Keeping the boat closer to those islands is an option but it would be brackish/salt storage and I like the idea of storing it in fresh water. The fuel usage is a huge turnoff and probably enough to make me do a 180 on the whole idea.

I'm just afraid of the slippery slope. Start looking at F32's then on to 34's and before I know it I'm into a twin diesel trawler pushing 40'. I've read to find the boat that is as small as you can live with... We can live with the F26 but obviously F32's has things to offer.

I've looked into the generators and if used smart they can be safe. Obviously using it only while moored. First off a marine carbon monoxide detector(maybe 2 for redundancy). I've read about everything from the swim platform to rigging a flexible exhaust tube to bring the C02 to the water level away from vents. A swim platform would probably be added anyway.

This is a starter boat for all intents and purposes.

There's a local F32 that looks to have been redone cosmetically for 10k. A transmission rebuild in 2014 but looks to be in good shape.

Heres the F26 because everyone likes pics.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

The F32..haven't seen it(230 miles away). Does have AC and Genset. Saltwater run and stored in the salt. Both 1975 year. Getting less than 1mpg, handling a boat that big, Storing a boat that big is a turn off at this point. On the flip side it does have alot of things already installed that would make this easy(platform,Genset,AC)
Image
Image
Image

Back to the F26.
This looks interesting.
Image
I could even make a little bracket off the back of the boat out of starboard for the small gen. I saw a guy on the hook who had his honda hung off the bow rails with paracord :shock: .

That being said I haven't been on the boat with the hatches open and it may be livable as is(for sleeping at night).

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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by ready123 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:50 am

MrWesson wrote: The fuel usage is a huge turnoff and probably enough to make me do a 180 on the whole idea.

I'm just afraid of the slippery slope. Start looking at F32's then on to 34's and before I know it I'm into a twin diesel trawler pushing 40'. I've read to find the boat that is as small as you can live with... We can live with the F26 but obviously F32's has things to offer.
If the fuel usage has that effect on you then I question if you can afford boat ownership of any size!
Fuel usage is the minor cost in the whole picture... you will spend substantially more on storage, maintenance etc:

The diesel trawler would in fact be the best way to go.... lower costs all around and with the extra space you would find you use it more because of the extra comfort and safety.

The Honda will end up being a major hassle and you will want to move to and on-board generator...

Just how I see it from here.... FYI I had a 26' boat (9'6" beam even) with a Honda 2000 and I quickly sold it (after 3 months use) and did things the right way when I got my F32 with genny.... I don't regret it though now I have the trawler as well I should have got an F36 as the F32 is small. ;)
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by carlywolf » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:37 am

Mr Wesson
I currently own a 1977 F26 that has been fully redone....new 5.7 350 mpfi indmar marine engine with 250 hours on it..a/c fridge ..electric Johnson pump toilet ..microwave. 26 inch tv.. a Honda 2000 I generator which can run a/c no problem on the hook.... im looking at a offshore fishing boat.. hence considering selling my great Trojan... not sure your price range but. Im in Merritt Island Florida. right next to Cocoa Beach.. runs like a dream and have been very happy with the express cruiser interior as far as comfort.. you can call my cell phone .. 1-229-272-2418 if you want more info... Carl
Classic 1977 F26 HT 5.7 MPFI 350 (330HP)
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Re: New guy looking to buy a F-26

Post by MrWesson » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:50 am

ready123 wrote:
MrWesson wrote: The fuel usage is a huge turnoff and probably enough to make me do a 180 on the whole idea.

I'm just afraid of the slippery slope. Start looking at F32's then on to 34's and before I know it I'm into a twin diesel trawler pushing 40'. I've read to find the boat that is as small as you can live with... We can live with the F26 but obviously F32's has things to offer.
If the fuel usage has that effect on you then I question if you can afford boat ownership of any size!
Fuel usage is the minor cost in the whole picture... you will spend substantially more on storage, maintenance etc:

The diesel trawler would in fact be the best way to go.... lower costs all around and with the extra space you would find you use it more because of the extra comfort and safety.

The Honda will end up being a major hassle and you will want to move to and on-board generator...

Just how I see it from here.... FYI I had a 26' boat (9'6" beam even) with a Honda 2000 and I quickly sold it (after 3 months use) and did things the right way when I got my F32 with genny.... I don't regret it though now I have the trawler as well I should have got an F36 as the F32 is small. ;)
Affording something isn't the issue here. I have 6 figures in investments, no kids and make 6 figures a year for perspective. I'm cautious about all things(small house/modest life)

This would be my first cabin boat. I like to start small and work up. If the F26 works and we like it I will probably just invest the money towards whatever we want that keeps us happy. If its mostly just myself enjoying the boat then we may have a problem. I understand that the portable genny setup will probably annoy me over time but like I said... Gradual.

I already have a boat but its a fishing boat with a 30 gallon tank and a V6 outboard. Its not setting the world on fire in the MPG dept either(about 3).



Storage with electrical will cost me $150 a month... Not expensive by any means(my area is cheap).
I don't think the maintenance will be alot from the getgo but I don't let things get bad. I will probably count on having the boat hauled out every 6 months for inspection on a rack and I can do work there myself if needed. Catastrophic things can happen though. I would DIY all maintenance.

I understand outboards and do my own repairs(head gaskets,cleaning carbs, rebuild lower unit..) I'll have a learning curve for the running gear in a Inboard(shaft packings,transmissions,etc) but the learning curve isn't steep.

I have free time and actually enjoy working on my previous boats. Add in the comfort of a larger boat and I'd probably spend even more time DIY. I am pretty handy and can handle most things(and have tools to do so). Like I said I have handled rebuilding a deck on a fiberglass fishing boat and the only thing I haven't done on engines is a full rebuild/tranny work). Electrcal work doesn't scare me at all and I'm actually pretty good at wiring stuff up. I hate fiberglass work but I CAN do it.

Fuel usage on a F32.. I USE my boats or I sell them. I'd figure about $500 a month on fuel using a F32. IMO thats significant. The F26 almost halves that number. The misses and myself start spending every weekend on the boat and wanting more then we would debate that later. Right now it would scare her away.

I've got her 50/50 on board with the F26 and still working on her. Talking about more money, bigger boats, increased fuel consumption is just going to make things harder right now.

If I lose the battle I'm afraid of pontoon boat ownership :x .

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