Huge engine room vents on '88 - 91 12 meter

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Tue May 25, 2010 4:54 pm

Are they as big and low to the water line as they look? On the later Carver-Trojan 440 express, David Pascoe laments the big, unfiltered side vents that allow salt spray all over the engine room. Is that also the case on the 12 meter? I love the 12m express, but the open transom "gates" and the big low side vents make me wonder if they are designed to be a truly seaworthy boat or are they best suited for sheltered water cocktail cruising.
There are a couple of reasonably priced diesel powered examples on the market now - anyone have any experience or insight into their performance and seaworthiness?

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Tue May 25, 2010 8:58 pm

Diesels need large vents I know of no issues with the 12 meter ,and it is a very seaworthy boat . The carver Trojan is a carver a totally different boat

David Pascoe has some Strong opinions on some things ( like we all do) but in many cases thats all it is a opinion not fact , and that is my opinion

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Tue May 25, 2010 10:00 pm

Thanks Prowlerfish. I in no way confuse the build quality of the pre Carver Trojans with the Carver Trojans - but reading the review of the 440 made me take a second look at the big vents on the 12m Express. The open transom bugs me a bit as I have been on a boat taking water over the stern trying to enter a marina inlet along with a rush of other boats seeking shelter when a hurricane (Louis, 1995) that was supposedly well on its way backtracked and slammed our normally sheltered west coast with massive waves.
It was an extreme situation, but open transoms always give me the willies after that experience. If we do end up with a 12m Express - and that is where it seems we are leaning - I suppose I could always panel the transom gate with StarBoard or fiberglass.

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Tue May 25, 2010 10:20 pm

Tropical Buzz
The statement I made referred to The 12 meters I know , The later 12 meter /400 express . looks a lot different ( just did some looking) So my info may not be correct They sure look a lot like the carver makes you wonder .I See what you mien a bout the open transom , if you like the express have you looked at the 11 meters ? you may like them better .

BTW there is nothing wrong with a carver , they are well made boats

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Tue May 25, 2010 11:17 pm

I do like the 11m express; great lines and solidly built - I just don't see many diesel powered versions and most of what I have read indicates they are too heavy and beamy for the gassers.

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Thu May 27, 2010 7:29 pm

No one has any direct knowledge or hands on experience with the '88 to '91 12 meter Trojans?

I know they have the Delta Conic hull but with a much narrower beam than the older 13 meter expresses. Outside of the transom design, it looks like a nice boat and I would really like to know how they actually perform.

I found a boat test report here: http://www.goboatingamerica.com/boattes ... asp?id=446 but published tests always seem to give glowing reports in the interest of protecting advertising revenues and I would prefer to hear from actual owners or others who have some knowledge about the boats.

captainmaniac · Post by **captainmaniac** » Thu May 27, 2010 10:03 pm

Not a 12m, but here is a video review of a used 10m that may or may not be of any use.

http://www.boattest.ca/test/604/1987-tr ... cabin.html

rossjo · Post by **rossjo** » Fri May 28, 2010 12:17 am

Nice 12Meter for sale here - see what you mean on the transom ...

http://boats.iboats.com/trojan_yachts/565935.html $70k

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Fri May 28, 2010 1:33 am

Thanks Captainmaniac - I enjoyed watching that.

Rossjo - that's one of the 12M's I've been watching. If the rest of the boat lives up to the reputation for being solidly built, I suppose the open transom could always be "fixed". Stringer rot should not be an issue as Trojan supposedly used fiberglass I-beams instead of encapsulated wood.

There is a member here who has a 12M aft cabin yacht, same series - I hope he sees this thread and chimes in.

bobg · Post by **bobg** » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:23 pm

I have a 12M aft cabin but I don't think I am the right person to answer your question since I am a lake boater. But I will try anyways. Maybe another 12M aft cabin owner can chime in on this? I have previously avoided these discussions because I am one of those with strong opinions but I am not interested in starting a flame war.

I have some experience on open water, but it is very limited. I am on a lake that can throw some serious extremes at you. 3' chop on the lake is much more extreme than the typical 3' on the open water due to the distance between wave crests. This is rare, but it happens. But the open water can do much worse.

I have followed the Pascoe site for a long time. It strongly influenced my decision when I bought my previous 33' boat and my current Trojan. He has strong opinions but they are based in fact. You have to understand why he makes his strong opinion statements and evaluate them based on all of the other statements he makes. For instance, he sometimes is critical of balsa core below the water line. This is because balsa will rot if it encounters water. But he also points out that if the balsa is properly encapsulated in fiberglass - and you don't start making holes in it - it is not a significant issue. I think Trojans were well built and this is not a problem. He also became critical of SeaRay's manufacturing problems but thought that SeaRay would be a good boat if they corrected them. SeaRay promptly started to work on the issue.

Sea-worthiness is a combination of a good boat and a good captain. Every boat handles differently and will have different issues handling bad water. My previous 33' had a lower transom than the Express in the picture above. I have been out in bad weather when I was worried about the waves swamping the boat. I got in a situation where I thought I could get swamped if I turned the nose out of the incoming waves - but I had to because I was approaching shallow water. I crested a wave at idle and put port in full reverse and starboard full forward. I got the boat cranked around as the next wave was coming at the aft. I then put both engines full forward and outran the wave that was going to come over the transom - I had enough available power to do that. In other words, I knew the capabilities of the boat I was driving. That boat was not a good ocean-goer. The Trojan aft-cabin does not have that issue - look at the transom height on an aft cabin, it will take a lot of wave to swamp it from the rear. But that is not to say it is perfect, it has different issues - and a good captain should know what they are. Every boat is different and has strengths and weaknesses in it's design.

As for the engine room vents - on the 12M aft cabin the engine vents are below the side windows, not in the big decorative vents at the back. I don't see the same on the Express. It is not obvious to me from the pictures how the Express engine vents work, but if they are in the back as I suspect I wouldn't worry about it too much. The bow should typically be throwing the majority of the water well away from those vents.

I believe the Schoell design is sea worthy. I like the International design better than most others. It made good trade-offs between sea handling ability and lower cost/weight, but it won't plow water like a Bertram. It's not nearly as heavy. You correctly point out that the transom is low on the Express but this is something the captain needs to be aware of and not get in a situation that will make it an issue. Every boat on the planet has some issue that the captain needs to be aware of and be able to handle when the situation arises.

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:12 pm

Thanks Bob - I really appreciate the reply. As you stated, your aft-cabin has neither the open transom nor the big side vents, but the insight into the general build quality and seaworthiness of the hull are reassuring.

Both my wife and I are doing a lot of research prior to taking the plunge, including some serious introspection and assessment of our musts and wants and how we will actually be using the boat. Pre-Carver Trojan International expresses with diesel power are at the top of our list right now, in particular the 12 meter. The other brands on the short list are the Tiara 3600 & 4300 opens and the Formula F36 & F41 PC's.

bobg · Post by **bobg** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:10 am

My wife and I did it just the same. Researched for months and months until we determined exactly what we wanted. From my research it seemed that Tiara was well made. I didn't really look at Formula. And of course we ended up with a Trojan.

Whatever you choose, make sure you get a survey done. Even the best built boats can exhibit latent defects.

Tropical Buzz · Post by **Tropical Buzz** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:28 am

Will do on the survey. My wife actually really likes the 12M aft cabin - she was blown away by the look, the layout and the big aft stateroom.

After renting, chartering and cruising on as many different types of boats as we could down here, from go-fasts and center consoles all the way to trawlers, it's becoming apparent that the open cockpit, decent speed and direct access to the water offered by express designs may be what suits us best.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:41 pm

bobg wrote:

As for the engine room vents - on the 12M aft cabin the engine vents are below the side windows, not in the big decorative vents at the back. I don't see the same on the Express. It is not obvious to me from the pictures how the Express engine vents work, but if they are in the back as I suspect I wouldn't worry about it too much. The bow should typically be throwing the majority of the water well away from those vents.

.

I too have a 12 Meter Aft Cabin and the large decorative vents, as you call them, are truly vents on all of the diesel powered 12 Meters that I have seen. You would not get anywhere near enough air out of the vents that are located under the salon windows especially with the collector boxes and hoses that are connected that even further reduce the available amount of air.
Under each ridge of the rear vents it is all open for about 18''. They also have a screen mounted there to keep small birds and large bugs out. If you look at my pic you will see the slightly shaded portion that is the opening in the vent.
This current boat is my third International. I think these boats are built like tanks for the money that you can pick one up for, especially in the market today.
I have had these boats out in some very ugly weather on Lake Erie and have never been uncomfortable. When we take a trip and travel with other boats and the wind happens to kick up, I have not been with another boat in it's class that can give you as nice of a ride or that could keep pace with us.
I have been a licensed captain and have chartered and done deliveries for years. I have operated and done instructions on a lot of different boats and the International Series is one of my all time favorites.
Dollar for dollar, they are pretty hard to beat.

RWS · Post by **RWS** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:04 am

The International Series were a well thought out, well designed, engineered and well built series of boats.

The design has certainly stood the test of time, and continues to do so.

RWS