Starboard Battery Dead...........AGAIN

BMILLER · Post by **BMILLER** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:31 pm

Had previous battery issues in this restore project. Actually paid to have a tech come in and disconnect everything not needed to start and operate the engines. Starboard battery now dead again within 4 days. Only cables hooked to batteries are battery cables. I removed all cables and when I reinstalled the starboard ground I got a spark. Any ideas what else may be draining the battery. Battery is new, as was the other one. Other one recharged and on port side and working fine. Right now I disconnected all cables from the batteries. Recommendations and ideas appreciated. Boat is '78 F28 with twin 318 and 6.5 Onan (battery completely removed from gen).

captainmaniac · Post by **captainmaniac** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:23 pm

Dual or single station? Don't know about the F28, but on an F32 the starboard battery also supplies power to the flybridge 12v system and blowers. The port battery does the lower station and interior lights. Any chance you have a switch or panel lights turned on up top?

Do you have the magic black-box cross over / emergency start solenoid between the engines? If so you may have fridge, bilge pumps, or head wired directly to the little black box, which indirectly will connect them to your starting batteries through the regular cables (without it being obvious).

The fridge would probably be ac/dc but if the shore power is out or the fridge electronics are a bit fried it may decide to suck 12v regardless.

Commissionpoint · Post by **Commissionpoint** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:28 pm

Sure sounds like you are drawing a current if you got a big ol' spark. Whats still connected? Could you possibly have a shorted alternator or starter? Bad voltage regulator?

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:47 pm

I agree with above possibilities. Also check any automatic systems like bilge pumps. If the float switch is deffective and has been constantly on for a while, it may have siezed the pump which will continue to draw current. Make sure there are no bare wires in the bilge sitting in water. I trust this battery had been properly charged then tested? A seemingly good battery may not have the ability to be fully charged or hold a charge.

BMILLER · Post by **BMILLER** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:50 am

Yes I have a flybridge, A/C, heater and fridge. Fridge is in off position as is AC. The PO has the heater hooked up to an extension cord routed aft by the AC hookup fitting. Just an orange cord tucked up under the panel. Both of my battery switches in the salon where off. Does DC current still go to the flybridge in this case? Behind the lower instrument panel is a very small terminal board with tiny wires hooked to it................30ga if there is such a size. Its just hanging there and has the telltale masking tape job of the PO. I haven't pulled the starboard side interior wood panel off yet, but was told there is a blower there too. I only hear a port side blower when I throw the switch. The fwd and aft bilge pumps are manual. The center one was fired and I removed it and its associated wiring and have a new auto pump that will be routed directly to a house battery via a separate fuse panel to be installed in the aft port side of the salon. The horn does not work now. Initially, the blower worked and no horn, then one day the horn "slightly" made a sound and the blower didn't work. Now its vice versa. When I do start the engines I have very erratic tachs, especially the port ones, top and downstairs. I have no working voltmeters anywhere, but gas, oil pressure work fine. I currently removing the 12, yes 12 speakers in the salon and all the wiring. Removed at LEAST 50 yrds of unused or dangling wires below deck.............sigh. Its overwhelming to say the least and I'm an electrican by no means. I was hoping to at least get the engine start system stabilized as a starting point and working from there. I have so many issues, I honestly don't know where to start. PO is absolutely no help at all. As an example, the PO used SPEAKER wire, three two strand wires all twisted together to power the onboard battery charger. Yes, I pulled it all out. Every panel I remove, another "surprize" ! Enough for my venting. Again I'm trying to remove all non essential circuits from the system and start over without the batteries going dead w/ battery switches off. Where do I start ??????????????????????

BMILLER · Post by **BMILLER** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:09 am

Oh, and other things. When I flip on the AC main breaker on, there is a red flickering light that is half way falling out of the panel. I'm skeptical of throwing the other 2 breakers on, so I have not done it. AC outlets on port side working, starboard..........no. AC systems seriously concern me. On that AC panel is a 3 position bilge switch and have no idea where the wires go. I can account for and trace the 2 pump wiring runs currently in the boat, simple on/off switches on panels. DC panel has a toggle switch next to the fuse cover and its unmarked and I have no idea where it goes either. Fuse block has a 12ga wire w/o a terminal end screwed to the top front of one of the fuse holders. Can't find where it goes either...........yet.

Commissionpoint · Post by **Commissionpoint** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:59 am

Considering the tangle of wiring you have been describing to us for weeks now I think its important to determine exactly what kind of current draw you are experiencing. If you disconnect the negative side battery cable and 'jumper in' a quality ammeter from the negative post to the negative cable you can at least determine how many amps you are drawing when the system is supposed to be 'off'.

I'm still thinking you have a bad alternator(s) based on what you have described.

BMILLER · Post by **BMILLER** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:31 am

My apologizes for being a nuisance, I guess being lost in trying to get a handle on this has made me redundant. I'll figure it out somehow. Again.....sorry.

Commissionpoint · Post by **Commissionpoint** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:21 pm

BMILLER wrote:My apologizes for being a nuisance, I guess being lost in trying to get a handle on this has made me redundant. I'll figure it out somehow. Again.....sorry.

Not a nuisance. I think we all want to see you up and running.

Do go ahead and perform the current draw test I described for you. Remember, if its a trickle, say 500-800 milliamps, its enough to draw down the battery over a period of several days. If its more than 2 or 3 amps then 2 things. One is that you will lose your charge pretty quickly. A day, maybe two depending on the type and condition of the battery if its a constant draw. Second would be that if its a recurring thing you will eventually kill your battery by deep cycling it to an early grave. If you are pulling much more than 3 amps (like 5 or heaven forbid 15) you will know there is a serious short somewhere causing you to lose charge.

In your alternator there are diodes. Diodes in this application function basically as a check valve for electrical current. Current can come out of the alternator as it is produced during operation, but cannot flow back the other way when the alternator is not in use. If the diodes burn out they no longer prevent current from flowing back the other way and your alternator becomes a greedy amp monster that eats up all your stored energy in the battery.

BMILLER · Post by **BMILLER** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:29 pm

Thanks..shall do. Before I go up to the boat again, let me ask this question. Is it true that the starting circuit for this twin engine config combines both batteries in parallel momentarily during starting? IF there is a starting "issue", moving the emergency switch up or down manually parallels the batteries. In a static, engine not running condition, only 1 of the batteries provides power to the house circuits? I'm asking to try to determine if the issues are confined to the starboard battery only. I do have the crossover box and it was/is in bad shape. I was thinking about installing a separate battery system just for the house circuits, totally independent of the engine system for the radios, aux lights, running lights,horn, blowers etc. Is that a direction I should avoid? I would charge that battery system from an independent remote charger. Right now the onboard charger is removed from the boat and an updated unit will be installed soon. Start switches in salon are toggles and on flybridge are rotating knobs...........no key type units. The flybridge has full gauges, hailer, VHF, independent voltmeter, which works occasionally when tapped. Horn is a toggle not a pushbutton too. I have numerous areas for that current draw. First step is to check the amp draw and alternator as suggested.

captainmaniac · Post by **captainmaniac** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:00 pm

The starting circuit you are describing is the "magic black-box cross over / emergency start solenoid" I mentioned. Separate circuits are supposed to be maintained unless you flip and hold the 'emergency' start switch on the dash - that's what trips the solenoid to parallel the systems. When you let the emerg switch go, you should be back to dedicated circuits again.

Since you have two hot wires and ground in this box, it is a good place for 'leaks' to occur if someone has wired something else into it (eg the fridge and head in mine - they work even if the battery switches are turned off). If there are any wires other than to the batteries or engines coming out of this box, track 'em down. Good luck!

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:19 pm

BMILLER wrote:......When I flip on the AC main breaker on, there is a red flickering light.....

Pretty sure that's indicating reverse polarity. You deffinately want to get that corrected for safety.

I'm getting overwhelmed just reading this thread and all the electrical issues you're having and I consider myself pretty electrically savvy, so I can understand your frustration. All possibilities above are good ones. You can check for an alternator fault by disconnecting one engine at a time (main battery cable) and checking if you still have a draw. This of course assumes a typical installation. If a battery isolator is involved, it changes diagnosis a bit. As for the rest, I've been there. I removed as you did, all wiring that didn't go anywhere, replaced all that I considered inadequate, and designed new circuits as I saw fit including changing the way Trojan did things. As for finding where the draw is, disconnect a lead at the battery as mentioned above, insert an ammeter and isolate/disconnect one circuit at a time until you find one that drops the meter to zero or at least a bit of a drop in case there is more than one load doing the draining. A load device is anything, that requires electricity to operate. By isolating, I mean physically disconnecting each load device. Simply switching it off won't do since you can't be certain another device isn't connected into the same circuit somewhere down the line by the PO.

Good luck and keep us posted.