Engine rebuild, what to save and what to replace?

[yorklyn]

Been doing the same thing mike, Thanks I really appreciate it! It really starts to add up depending on what you replace.
Engine rebuild 3500-4500 x 2= $7000-$9000
Engine mounts front $34x4= $136 http://www.marineandrvpartssupply.com/c ... _List.html
Engine mounts rear $84x4= $336 http://www.marineandrvpartssupply.com/c ... _List.html
Oil coolers $231x2= $462 http://www.marineandrvpartssupply.com/c ... _List.html
Circulating pump $110x2= $220 http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/pc/MPR2231MN/CRU2H
Oil pressure sending $30x2= $60 pn 7000425 http://www.marinepartsplus.com/catalog/ ... 20Senders/
Oil pressure alarm $20x2=$40 Pn 97767 http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdet ... m%20Sender
Gear oil temp Pn 21088 $45x2= $90 http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdet ... no=R020037 &desc=235F Transmission Oil Temperature Switch
Engine water alarm $51x2= $102 pn 20326 http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdet ... o=R020014A &desc=Water Temp Alarm Switch
Engine water temp gauge $14x2=$28 http://www.iboats.com/Crusader-700427-r ... _id.458324
Ignition coil $46x2=$92 pn 41080 http://www.iboats.com/Crusader-41080-re ... _id.458309
50 amp breaker $53x2=$106 pn 97568 http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdet ... fgno=97568
Solenoid $80x2= 160 pn 9006320 http://www.marinepartssource.com/newdet ... no=R130014
44 inch hose oil cooler to tranny $79x2=$158 CRU22415 replaced by 22619 https://bpi.ebasicpower.com/pc/CRU22619/CRU2A
64 tranny to cooler hose $51x4=$204 pn 22417 replaced by22621 https://bpi.ebasicpower.com/pc/CRU22621/CRU2A
Fuel pump $110x2=$220 pn 97843 http://www.partman.com/fuel/fuel-pumps/ ... 11270.html
Distributor assembly$305x2=$610 pn crusader 37061 http://www.iboats.com/Distributor-Sierr ... _id.171815

Say $8000 for rebuilds $3024 in listed accessories plus $1200 to freshen trannys (guess?) plus $700 for professional carb rebuild and tune (guess?) plus $1500 for hoses bolts and other misc parts not listed above=
$14424 for both engines or $7212 each

It makes something like this look pretty good. http://www.michiganmotorz.com/marine-en ... p-199.html $8676 with some bells and whistles.
I was really hoping to be around $5000 per enging but that is no longer looking realistic. I just want reliable power with limited issues after all the work ive gone through.

[yorklyn]

Mike, thanks for the link too. I have never seen that site before. looks pretty good.
Todd

[Unchained]

Good point Todd. I considered that route too last year, but the difference was about $2k and I wanted to keep them the same since I was only doing one. The reverse rotation motor adds $.
If you get them rebuilt, have them balanced. Well worth the $150 or so.

[Unchained]

I forgot to mention about the paint too.
You can try to match up to the Crusader blue using this chart and check it out at an Advance Auto Parts store.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/enginePaint/

[RWS]

For the benefit of this thread, I am reposting an item I posted to this forum in 2007.

It's not about the total cost

it's about the incremental difference.

rebuilding the 454's and all the bolt on components was actually a bit more costly than new Crusader 8.1's (no longer available)

Doing the 8.1's required new shafts & struts due to being on the "safety" edge with such long shafts (2 struts per side)

It also required a larger diameter raw water system, seacocks, strainers, etc.

These issues made the DIFFERENCE to do the diesels far less significant than the whole enchalada.

(see older posts below)
RWS

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by RWS on Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:40 am

I repowered my 33' Trojan International 10 Meter last year. Replaced the worn out 454's with Yanmar 6cyl turbodiesels. I didn't want to do a rebuild of the 454 blocks & heads and then have to deal with all the old bolt on items like heat exchangers, oil coolers, starters, etc being 25 years old, so I started looking at the 8.1 Crusaders with transmissions, however doing a prop/shaft calculation showed that I was just outside the safety zone for the factory shafts. Once I figured shafts & props and then looked at the diesels again, the DIFFERENCE between the 8.1's and the diesels became less significant. No matter how you figure it when it comes time to sell her she will be worth at least the DIFFERENCE more with her diesels than with the gas engines. The increased speed, range & economy is an added plus. What an amazing vessel.

RWS




========================================================================================
by RWS on Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:51 pm

Juice,

It was a cooperative effort between the dealer and myself and was completed right in your back yard, in St James City.

My factory shafts were 1 1/4" and were borderline acceptable if I went with the 8.1 gas engines. Having to change the shafts, props, logs & struts made the jump to diesel less painful. Given the current fuel price situation, I'm really glad I did it !

The F-36 is a great vesssel, I've seen some pix of yours, you have a lot to be proud of.

Send me an e-mail and I'll provide you with the finer details

RWS
==============================================================================

by RWS on Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:15 pm

Joe,

My 454's were really, really tired. My first choice was to replace them with new 8.1's, however to do them right, I needed to upgrade the shafts & props. At that point the difference between the 8.1's and diesels became less significant. The diesels increase the value of the vessel the amount of the difference even 5 years from now when the 8.1's would be considered used gas engines, just like the 454's.

My 10 meter (not a mid cabin model) had a height restriction which limited my choices to the Volvo or Yanmar.

I went with Yanmar LP 315's. These are in line 6 cyl turbodiesels. Range and fuel economy more than doubled. I can cruise between 20-24 kts with a WOT of 27.3 kts.

I heard that these mechanicaly injected engines no longer meet the current tier of USEPA requirements and a new, elecrtonic common rail unit (more expensive) will replace them. If you act fast, you might still be able to get a pair of the LP's at a significant cost savings.

The 10 meter with this power choice is absolutely awesome. The vessel now rides on top of the water like she was designed to, taking full advantage of her unique hull design. Also the ass end comes completely out of the water. While the trim tabs will change the running attitude, they will not increase the speed. An additional benefit is the complete and total elimination of the station wagon effect that was so noticable with the 454's. My best guess on that is that the side exhausts are doing what they were designed to do with the improved running angle and speed.

RWS

[BobCT]

Does anyone know where "Draft" messages are saved? I was just about to reply to RWS's post about our run the other day and can't find it ;(

Todd,

I haven't rebuilt or pulled my engine but I've done pretty everything as though I had. My approach was to replace all the likely bolt on failure points in pairs, keeping one spare on board. That forced me to learn how to swap the part and also prove whether I had the tools on board to do the work. For me, things in this category were:

- oil coolers (sold old ones as working take outs) as you know, failure can be catastrophic
- coils
- ignition modules for now, have not replaced entire distributors but might next year
- cleaned heat exchangers, these are too expensive to proactively replace.. I'll roll the dice on these
- starters and alternators just based on age. I would recommend at least changing the Stb starter. Really tough to do on the mid cabin,
port side access is easier but would still be a challenge if you were somewhere other than home
- engine mounts, again based on age. Doing these installed is a real PIA. I have the Stb side done, doing the port side now
- belts, hoses... I'm sure you're doing these and not insulting you by suggesting plugs, wires, cap/rotor
- raw water pumps
- I didn't change the coolant circulating pumps on the front of the block for a couple of reasons. 1) the failure rate on these is really,
really low and they give you a lot of warning when they're starting to fail. Plus, they're just big block water pumps so you could get one at
any parts store in a pinch. They're not that expensive, maybe I would throw new ones on if the engines were in front of my on a stand
- Both fuel pumps. I kept the mechnical pump in place. They lasted for over 20 years and worked fine when I removed them so why add
another electrical component?

I also changed all the oil cooler and transmission cooler lines last year. That was a job and 1/2 with the engines installed but glad I did it. The hose is made by aeroquip and simple barb fittings which you already have, no reason not to re-use them. With the engines out, you could do all of them in an hour or so.

I'm a fan of the Q-Jets, I know a lot of people aren't. They are great carbs if re-built correctly and are really reliable. Unfortunately, that's not often the case and people install some other carb and call it a day. I think the reality is the comparison is then made between a "bad" Q-Jet and a new "any" brand and of course it'll run better. Mine start like they're fuel injected, idle under 600 RPM's and throttle up smooth as silk. I literally haven't touched them since I did the rebuild 3 seaons ago. I did send them to Cliff Ruggles for bench testing and tweaking. He is the guy who literally wrote the book on these carbs.

I know I asked you this in person but are absolutely sure they need to be rebuilt? I'm looking at your cost breakdown and of course that's a big number. The 454's as a rule are bullet proof and the lower end, even more so. If the compression is good and they weren't using oil, I would re-seal them while they're out, bolt on all new components and keep going. I know you don't want to do this again, I wouldn't either. But, you might have many years ahead of you before you need to commit to a full rebuild. Worst case, you can always get a valve job done while they're installed.

Just giving you more to think about

Bob

[prowlersfish]

"Manage PM Drafts "

[yorklyn]

Thanks Bob,
I was on cliff's website yesterday. I know you gave me the book on rebuilding the carbs. I'm going to get a price from cliff to do them for me and depending on the cost I may give it a try myself if its too much.
I had compression test done the second year that I had the boat. I looked everywhere for the paperwork but cant find it. I want to say everything was between 120 and 135??? The mechanic did say they were not bad enough to justify rebuilding at that time even though a few cyl were alittle on the low side. Where should the numbers be?
I did find the paperwork from when I purchased the boat and the hours were 876. I also found a brokerage listing from when the boat was for sale in 1991 and the hours were listed at 947??? I dont believe the engines were ever rebuilt. this would put me somewhere around 2000 hrs if they just replaced the hour meter. In 1991 my boat was listed for $89,500! and the poor thing was named "BARBARELLA"!!
I know I should just put the damb things back in and run them until my bank account heals up some but I would hate to start off with issues.
Thanks for the tip on the hoses. I didnt think mine had barbed fittings but I'll check again.

Todd

[BobCT]

Todd,

1) If you have time, you can definitely handle the rebuild of the carbs. I don't know what he charges, I got the rebuild kits from him which included the bushings for the shaft linkage (common leak point), did the work and then sent them to him for bench testing. All in, it was $350?? for both including his work. If you decide to do it yourself, there's a video out there on BoatersEd of a guy doing a marine Q-Jet rebuild. The book is good but mostly for the pictures.

2) Those fitting do look like a hydraulic hose. Take a razor to the top and the hose will split right off and you'll see the barb.

3) It would be interesting to do a "cold" compession test as they sit. It's not going to give you the perfect # because technically they should be warm. It will show the variance between cylinders which is the most important thing. At 2,000 hours the bottom end might be fine and you can just do a valve job. You ran those engines for a number of years right? Did they burn oil?

Good article below on compression...

----------------------------------------------------

about the check itself...

Compession tests should be done with the engine warm. Run the engine to normal operating temp, then do the comp checks. Yes, it's harder because everything is hot but otherwise your reading is not representative of what's going on. Perform the test with the throttle at WOT and the choke fully open. Get 6 compression "pumps" on each cylinder - 4 is commonly recommended but 6 to 10 is better so get at least 6 and get the SAME number on each cylinder . Use a comp gauge that screws into the spark plug hole, NOT one of those cheapos that you manually hold over the hole. If you didn't do it per the above, do it again following that procedure. Otherwse your readings cannot be considered valid. I would like to see both of those engines closer in overall compression numbers - in the 150 range.

OK, so what do the readings mean? The most important issue is that all the readings be close. Service specs usually call for all cylinders to be within 10% of each other. So, for example, if your high cylinder was 150PSI, the low cylinder would be OK as far as the service manual states(though not in my opinion) if it was no lower than 135PSI. Your 120-130 is a bit lower than I would expect overall for this engine. Obviously the 70PSI reading indicates a notable problem. It's probably a valve issue but could be more serious - such as a broken ring or worse. Your other engine, 140-150 sounds about right.

For compression tests, one typical way to diagnose rings or valves is to put a teaspoon of oil into each cylinder and repeat the test. If the compression rises, the problem is usually rings, if not, its usually valves.

The best thing to do, though it's additional work, is to perform a cylinder leakdown test. A compression test is a useful procedure but it only gives you part of the information you need. A cylinder leakdown will give you the rest. Actually, if I had a choice of only performing one of the two tests on an engine, it would be the leakdown because it will tell you where the problem is better than a compression test will. The disadvantage of the leakdown, and the reason the comp test is typically done, is that the leakdown takes a lot longer and more equipment. In a shop you can do a comp test on an engine in 10 minutes but a leakdown may take up to two hours.

The leakdown won't tell you the actual compression but it will tell you if you have compression escaping past the intake valve, the exhaust valve, the rings, or the head gasket (to the outside or to the water jacket. As mentioned, a leakdown test takes some time and can be a bit fiddly and, if done carelessly, can cause damage - more likely to you than to the engine! It requres an air compressor with a fitting that can screw into the spark plug hole and a gauge attached so you can watch the reading when you pressurize the cyl. You also have to be able to turn the engine over manually with a socket and ensure the piston is at top dead center on the compression stroke when you turn on the air. You also have to ensure the crankshaft STAYs where you want it when you apply the air. If you decide you want to do so and need info on how to set up and perform a leakdown test, let me know.

Re the compression spec range - Personally, if I had let an engine out of the shop that met the above spec (150, 135), that would have been my first and last engine job! Personally, I never let an engine (mostly MOPARs) out of my hands with more than 5 psi difference between the high and low cyl and I considered that the extreme and would frankly call it "not one of my best engines."

I'd have all the heads redone unless you determine one of the engines has some issues - like bad rings - that you don't want to deal with at the moment. Putting a redone head on an engine with bad rings will just gunk up the heads fairly quickly and I wouldn't bother if it's running OK.

[yorklyn]

Thanks Bob,
The engines didn't burn much oil at all. maybe 1/2 quart every 50 hours or so. I have a craftsman "screw in"compression tester that ive never used. so i would have to put the flywheel and bell housing and starter back on. remove all spark plugs turn over 5-10 times and test each cyl? With them cold I'm basically looking for the numbers to be consistant?