BILGE PUMPS

captainmaniac · Post by **captainmaniac** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:39 pm

prowlersfish wrote:Us regs also has the same requirement . a buckit will meet the requirement

... As long as you can easily get to the bilge, I would expect.... I know a lot of guys are putting in laminate and hardwood flooring - don't know if I have always seen access hatches being retained.

prowlersfish · Post by **prowlersfish** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:29 am

captainmaniac wrote:
prowlersfish wrote:Us regs also has the same requirement . a buckit will meet the requirement
... As long as you can easily get to the bilge, I would expect.... I know a lot of guys are putting in laminate and hardwood flooring - don't know if I have always seen access hatches being retained.

I did say it will meet the requirement not that will work that well . I also would bet manual pump in the forward locker would not work as its 33 years old . I do carry another one ( mainly for the rib) But with each electric pump on its own battery I am in pretty good shape.

randyp · Post by **randyp** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:09 am

I, too have a bucket to bail the boat, or maybe to throw up in when I realize I'm sinking in a pristine NY lake and have to pay NY DEC the clean up costs.........

larglo · Post by **larglo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:10 am

Randy,

That was really funny, but when I started thinking about it,,,,,,it got scary. The cost of clean up!

I would really like to see, and will later do a Google search, the bucket regulation. I an curious as to the actual reading of the regulation, stating if it's sole purpose is to bale the "bilge" or just to bale the boat. Does it specify how many buckets per length of foot, 12feet,,,,1 bucket or 25feet,,,2 buckets, etc. Sounds like a regulation written pre-electric age?

I don't think I would even notice water in the bilge until it got above the floor, and that's when a bucket would come in handy. I have no doubt that there is law as such, but if you have a 30' or 45' or larger boat, and it's taken on water,,,,one bucket ain't gonna do ya any good, and I'd be a grabbin' me a life jacket, if I didn't already have one on and get the hell off the boat, before it took me down with it.

Larry

PS, I love it when one of my posts catches on, and gets up to 3 pages!

larglo · Post by **larglo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:42 am

Capt, all,

Are you suggesting I don't use switches? My pumps have 3 wires coming from them, two for manual operation and the third to hook up for the automatic operation of the pump.
Here is where it gets confusing for me. I found a 3-way switch on Go-To-Marine and I emailed them and asked if that switch would work with a pump that had the automatic float built right into the pump and not use a separate float switch.
I received a reply that read,,,,yes,,,if wired for manual. He didn't mention anything at all about the Automatic part of it, so assumed it wouldn't be useful with that type of pump.
The two switches I have, the wiring hook up shows using a separate float switch.

I don't have the hookup wiring diagram for the pump, but I do for the switch, using a separate float switch. It has the Pos & neg going to the bat. then it shows a pos going to the float sw and the pump, and a neg going to the float sw.
I was going to wire it this way. From the sw. a Pos/neg to bat. as shown, but the neg from the sw going to the pump and the pos also going to the pump, thereby eliminating the float. Clear as mud,,,ain't it.

That is why my bilge got a lot of water it, I had the switch set to "AUTO" and it didn't work BUT,,,,I didn't have it wired as I just mentioned, I'm not sure, just how I did have it wired?, but was trying to workaround not having a float sw.

I think I'll do a Google search and try and find the wiring diagram for my pump. But not using a 3-way switch is is in new territory all together for me.
Looks like I'm looking for more suggestions about this.

Larry

larglo · Post by **larglo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:22 am

Doing a Google search, I have found out how to wire the 3-wire Sahara 1100 pump up, and connect directly to the battery with in-line fuse for use in Automatic only.

I have found a 3-way switch on JD Marine for $26.00 that will fully work in On/Off/Auto. I think that's about what I paid for the 2 I have now, so I really hate to have to buy 2 more. I will, of course try to hook them up as I said before before I do any more buying. I would most likely do the "no switch" way, before doing that.

But the question is,,,,should I? What do you all think about it

Thanks,

Larry

rossjo · Post by **rossjo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:26 am

Larry,

As I, and CaptMania, stated earlier, your automatic bilge pumps should NOT be on a switch.

To be clear, most bilge pumps have 3 wires:
1) Ground "-" : hook it straight to the battery or a solid ground,
2) Switch on/off "+": hook this to a fused switch,
3) Automatic "+": hook this direct to you battery with a fuse.

This will work, and meets ABYC and USCG code. You should use tinned copper wiring, and Ancor crimped adhesive lined shrink wrap connectors.

Bilge pumps are probably the most important piece of equipment on your boat.

Congrats on 3 pages ....

Rule's fancy switch allows you to turn off the automatic feature - not a good idea in my opinion (but I do have 1 of 4 pumps hooked up with this, and like the light when it turns on automatically) ... The ground to the switch is for the light.

summer storm · Post by **summer storm** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:31 am

larglo wrote:but was trying to workaround not having a float sw.
Larry

Larry, IMHO you should have a float switch wired into the boats dewatering system.

A very proper system will have a AUTO/OFF/MAN switch for each pump and a high water alarm float switch wired to a bell or horn to inform you of a very high water level in the boat.

One more thing, Alot of people are saying if the boat is going down screw the manual pumps and jump off the boat. The manual pump is just as important as the electric pumps and should be serviced or replaced, and tested for operation on a monthly basis. Hand pumping a boat could buy you some time until help arrives. The two major causes of loss of life on a boat is fire and flood- get it?

summer storm · Post by **summer storm** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:52 am

rossjo wrote:Larry,

As I, and CaptMania, stated earlier, your automatic bilge pumps should NOT be on a switch.

The USCG code requires you to be able to turn the automatic pump off to stop the flow of oil, gas or diesel into the harbor. this equals a switch on the float, unless you want to run down to the battery bank and pull the fuse.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:25 pm

Hi Larry,

Since we have similar boats, I thought I'd explain to you the bilge pump set up that I have and why it's set up this way. When our 26 was built, it came with a 500 gph pump in the bow and at the stern next to the rudder. Each pump has it's own switch at the helm and are both wired to the cranking battery. Knowing how important these pumps are, I replaced both of them when we restored he boat. They are also both automatic with an indicator light at the helm so that I can see when they come on.

During the third summer after restoring this boat, we made a trip across the Western Basin of Lake Erie to spend the weekend at the municipal marina in Leamington Ontario. The Friday afternoon trip there was beautiful with the warm sun and flat water and we had a great weekend. That was all about to change on the trip home. We left for home Sunday morning under a cloudy sky with a stiff wind blowing from the south west that was kicking up a 4 foot chop on Lake Erie. As we headed out and began our 29 mile trip to the mouth of the Detroit River, I was impressed at how well the little Trojan was handling this water. We were cruising pretty much head on into it comfortably at about 15 mph with the windshield wipers running steady to clear the spray that we were kicking up. We were about a third of the way there when all of a sudden the engine stumbled and lost power which was followed immediately by the rear bilge pump turning on automatically. I brought the engine back to an idle and we could immediately smell something burning. I looked over at my wife and she was looking back at me like this

. I knew that I needed to find out what was happening fast but before opening the engine hatch, I told my wife to put on her life vest and I did the same. (we keep Mustang inflatable vests hanging at our seats) As I opened the hatch, I was hit with a cloud of steam that instantly fogged all of the cockpit windows and it also prevented me from seeing into the bilge for a moment. My wife was holding the hatch open for me while I was trying to keep the boat pointed into the waves with the engine running at an idle. As the steam cleared, I saw my normally dry bilge filling with water fast. The first thing that I thought of was the raw water hose for the engine had come off the ball valve but when I checked it there was no problem and the engine temp was also fine. When I checked the engine temp I also noticed that the forward pump was now running as well.

The next things that I checked were the shaft seals at both the prop shaft and the rudder and then all the other ball valves. No problems. With the water now coming up over the stringers at the back of the boat, I noticed that it was most turbulent under the engine. As I looked at the temperature gauge again, I noticed that it was starting to climb rapidly. At this point I knew it had to be related to the cooling system somehow so I shut the engine down before damaging it. Upon doing this, two things happened. The water stopped coming in and the boat turned sideways and fell into the troughs of the waves. By this point most of the water was sitting in the back of the boat and making it sit heavy in the water. The waves were now hitting the port side of the boat and the occasional white cap would roll right on into the cockpit adding to the water that I would have to pump out. It seemed to take forever for that little 500 gph pump to drain the engine bay enough for me to see what was going on. The manifolds were too hot for me to reach under the engine without burning my arm so I went down into the cabin and removed the steps and access panel to get to the front of the engine. (my steps and access panel come out without using tools

) As I looked under the engine I could see a hose hanging from the engine into the still flooded bilge. It was the hose from the pressure side of the raw water pump. The hose clamp was missing so I took one of the clamps off of the double clamped thru hull fitting and used it to re-attach the hose. Sounds like a fairly simple repair however doing it while the boat was rocking violently from side to side with water sloshing around and splashing me in the face really sucked. By the time I came back on deck I was turning green. I started the engine and let it run for only a few second then shut it down for about 30 seconds then repeated this process again several more times before finally letting it run. I did this so that I wouldn't fill my hot manifolds all at once with cold water and crack them. Once I got the boat heading into the waves again, the front pump shut off but the stern pump ran a while longer. As we finished our trip home, my wife was very quiet (rare thing

) and we were very aware of every sound the boat made for the rest of the trip.

So Larry, how important is a stern pump? The following week I had the boat hauled out so I could install two more thru hull fittings. I added a second 500 gph pump in the forward bilge and added an 1100 gph pump in the stern. They are also both automatic and are tied into the house batteries. I was amazed at how quickly the raw water pump flooded my bilge and disappointed at how slowly my bilge pumps pumped it out. If this had happened on a sunny day in calm water it probably would have been easier to deal with however you cant always choose when sh!t will happen. At least I now know that I can pump out my hull much quicker if something like this ever happens again.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

rossjo · Post by **rossjo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:40 pm

summer storm wrote:
rossjo wrote:Larry,

As I, and CaptManiac, stated earlier, your automatic bilge pumps should NOT be on a switch.

The USCG code requires you to be able to turn the automatic pump off to stop the flow of oil, gas or diesel into the harbor. this equals a switch on the float, unless you want to run down to the battery bank and pull the fuse.

You can use Rule's fancy switch - and leave it on all the time.

You are always responsible for any oil/gas being pumped over, so if your boat leaks when you'stilre not there, and it pumps overboard, l your responsibility and can legally be a huge fine for every incident (an incident is EVERY TIME this fuel or oil hits anything - a boat, short, a pier, etc.)

So technically, SummerStorm is right, but essentially you will have the automatic side of your pump ON at all times (I think the fuse meets the USCG reg in fact, but don't remember).

Anyway - last comment. going out to burn some fuel ...

larglo · Post by **larglo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:53 pm

Paul,

Thanks alot for that great story and for your time it took you to write it. I have been on the net all morning doing nothing but checking on BILGE pumps. I have come to the conclusion to get as soon as finances permit another 2nd pump,,,,,and the largest I can afford. The 1100 gph my son gave me, list for $150.00, and that's a lot of money for me, but what would it cost me if the boat sunk not only in $$$, but perhaps loss of life?
Your story put my decision over the top for sure!

Now I know exactly what, and how to do it, and thanks to all of you for your help!

Larry

ready123 · Post by **ready123** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:43 pm

Larry,

My view is that you are being distracted by safety concerns of bilge water by thinking the setup of others (ocean goers and big lake boaters) is necessary for you.......

You boat on a small lake, not far from shore and are not exposed to ocean waves and the like.
Since you have financial restrictions I would say you have more than enough safety of your two existing pumps.
Save that money and spend it on your electrical power system so you can enjoy your time out at anchor.
If you are still nervous get yourself a bilge high water alarm... they go for as little as $40.

I also don't agree with the need for a large pump in the stern of your boat.... that is only effective when on plane..... if you have big leak you are likely to be stationary while you try to plug it so a large bow bilge pump will do the work, once enough water gets to the back you are now likely past the area of recovery from the problem.

larglo · Post by **larglo** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Just by chance, not more than an hour ago, I was downstairs in my eagerness to do something concerning the boat, I started going through some boxes of boat stuff from last year, and found a fully automatic 500 gph Rule bilge pump I had bought the first 6 months after buying the boat.

By fully automatic they mean after installed, the pump comes on every 3 min. or so, and if it don't sense a drag (water) it will shut off after 10 sec. and repeat the cycle continuously. So when My son gave me the 1100 gph I replaced it, cause, I never trusted it. This thing cost $70.00 at West Marine.
So now what I'm going to do, is hook it up as a back-up and think about the matter for a while, cause you just may be right. I have learned a lot about bilge pumps in just the last couple days, and now know what to look for.

Larry

captainmaniac · Post by **captainmaniac** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:36 pm

larglo wrote:By fully automatic they mean after installed, the pump comes on every 3 min. or so, and if it don't sense a drag (water) it will shut off after 10 sec. and repeat the cycle continuously.

Be conscious / cautious about what this kind of cycle might do to your battery... 10 seconds every 3 minutes is almost 1.5 hours of pump run time per day, just for the hell of it... You want to make sure you have lots of juice left if a real problem occurs and a float switch decides to kick a pump on. Also, was the pump really designed to run dry that much, and still be reliable for a long time?

Re the concerns people have expressed around discharge of oil and gas overboard : oil and gas absorbent 'socks' and pads are relatively cheap (I have picked up 20 18"x24" pads for $15 at the boat show, and the Starbrite 'sock' http://www.pridemarine.com/showimage.cf ... 086805.jpg is also about $15 - incidentally, if you cut the plastic mesh off of the Starbrite thingy you will find it is really a roll (like paper towels), and you can cut it into smaller sheets for smaller spaces as needed).

Two options :

If you position some absorbent material or absorbers near the pumps (make sure they are fastened where they are so they cannot interfere with the operation of the pump or float switch, yet in a position that they are exposed to the surface of the bilge water where oil / gas may slick...so they can suck it up), they will suck up a bunch of the contaminants so much less will ever make it overboard.

Or do as I have... (more hassle and work, but I'm just stupid that way [and besides, I have to do my part to help the economy by doing things to myself to keep my massage therapist and my chiropractor in business]) I take pads and (have the wife) sew them together to produce an oil absorber mat big enough to fill the area (roughly 20"x42") under each engine and tranny (zip-tied in place so they don't plug any limber holes or get anywhere near the spinning shaft), plus cut up stuff into little puzzle pieces to go in the 'drip tray' for my generator. These capture 99% of what little might leak from the mechanicals or get spilled during an oil fill. Every spring I swap 'em out for fresh ones.

I also carry a stock of absorbers on board for 'emergencies'. I get a couple out and lay them where needed when doing an oil change, and when a friend had a gas leak a couple of years ago and called me over for help I took my spares and they did a great job of sopping things up until we figured out where the problem was and how to stop the leak. Come to think of it, he still owes me back..... or maybe the 16 year old was really my repayment.... (16 year old Scotch, that is... you sick puppies!!!)