Oil analysis Expierence

cuppa · Post by **cuppa** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:56 pm

Any one with expierence in Oil Analysis.

I am in the process of purchasing a trojan, F-36 all has checked out good so far Sea trial etc, but I got Oil analysis back and the Guy at the lab is very concearned because of some extremly high levels..

The motor has 800 hours on it, it is from a 1985 F-36 with Crusader 454..

There were high aluminum iron copper lead and more.. very high sodium and potassium

Most concearning was a high ammount of anti freeze.... Send me a pm I will send you the report..

This motor just had a top end done, I wonder if the guy who did it was sloppy and got a lot fo fluid in the crank case that has not made it out yet. This would be the first oil chaneg after that work was done.

What do you think....?

Cuppa..

kevin babineau · Post by **kevin babineau** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:28 pm

ive gotten anti freeze into the engine while doing head jobs...it wasnt a sloppy job it is just how it goes sometimes... as for if that is ur problem i cant say

ready123 · Post by **ready123** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:17 pm

Sodium & potassium suggests coolant leaking into oil.... which your results also show as being present.
Copper and lead suggest bearing wear which would not be a surprise with coolant leaking into oil.
Sounds like the bottom end should have been done when the top end was done...
Go to this site for more info http://www.annapolismarinesurveys.com/u ... es.htm#Oil
here is a pdf of where the metals might have come from:
http://www.annapolismarinesurveys.com/u ... alysis.pdf

Is that the same boat with the leaky oil cooler hoses? If so maybe the leak is in the oil cooler.

cuppa · Post by **cuppa** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:31 pm

It is the same boat.. The cooler was replaced the other day and the leaks were fixed.. Replaced becuase corrosion was detected, that would explain the sodium, but not the potassium....

I am not sure if I should move forward with the boat or try to negotiate with the owner for more testing.

If coolant did leak in during the head change, would it take a oil change or two to get all that to dissapear?

Would it have ruined the motor or just shortened its life?

Thanks for the help

kevin babineau · Post by **kevin babineau** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:45 pm

how much was the oil test?

ready123 · Post by **ready123** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:49 pm

Potassium is in coolant also.
The high levels of coolant would suggest oil cooler leaking not spilling during head work... would he not have mopped up what fell onto the pistons?
I would be more concerned about the bearing metals... do you hear any knocking from the engine? Get hold of a Dr's listening thingy and listen down low on the block to see if you can hear grinding bearings.
Aluminium from piston rings? sounds like it may have been running with coolant in the oil for a while.

If the rest of the boat is good (no soft decks) then maybe you should arrange to change oil and run engine for a few hours and redo the oil test.

I guess you need to assess what it will cost you and the chance that you have to do an engine rebuild..... were both engines bad from oil test?
If so then this boat has a bad maint history and maybe you should pass.

cuppa · Post by **cuppa** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:55 pm

The test was like 20 Bucks.

The other motor was better but not great high

elevated

tin
Lead
iron
and aluminum

Recomendation was to change oil and check filtration system (oil filter)

kevin babineau · Post by **kevin babineau** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:05 pm

imcurious to this testing..in an engine there is metal to metal contact always...the guy who does the test..does he said what is acceptable?...i dont know...the test does sound cool though....anyways ive done many head jobs and sometime antifreeze gets in there...so does the 3m wizzer pad dust...i will tell u that it is always a crap shoot...ive seen brand spankin new motors blow up and ive seen oldies run when they shouldnt....what does ur gut tell u?...i dont mean after u ate an anchovie pizza either...in this economy im sure the seller will work with u...if he wont hes a nudge....id change the oil...did u run compression? compression wont tell u how the main brgs are though....if u cant sleep without looking at a picture of it then...well u kno

RWS · Post by **RWS** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:13 pm

I started doing spectroscopic oil analysis on fleets in 1980's.

All the advice you've been getting on this thread is spot on.

You mentioned copper. It is a sign of worn bearings.

However copper and many of the other items mentioned here also show up in the makeup of of the oil addative packages when the oil is "built"

The best way to truly use an analysis is to have a sample of clean, unused oil to start with. That's your baseline. As the oil is sampled over time one can determine the most optimal oil change interval, perhaps extending it or finding out it needs to be done more frequently based on the depletion of TBN as well as wear metals.

As samples are taken over time, a TREND develops and when something shows up that is outside of these parameters problems can be caught before major damage occurs.

In your case the oil sample allows you the ability to negotiate a better deal on the boat IF YOU STILL WANT IT and if you are willing to take a chance on it.

By the way, that antifreeze could be left over from the head change over or maybe the head gasket is seeping because it wasn't tightened down properly, or maybe the head is warped (worse) or perhaps the block has a hairline crack.(much worse).

It's probably the best buyers market since fiberglass boats hit the water so make your best deal on this boat or look for another opportunity.

Good luck,

RWS

jav · Post by **jav** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:20 pm

oil analysis is most meaningful when done routinely and consistently. In these cases, an unusual reading has meaning mostly because it's different than one expects and merits further investigattion.

A singular oil sample, with no base line reference, is not nearly as useful and there may be valid non-catastrophic reasons for values to be outside of normal ranges. Was the oil changed after the last service? How old is the oil? Were there any other occurances which could have contributed to the elevated readings?

It is cause for caution though. Ideally, I'd want to change the oil and run 50 hours and retest- BUT- when you don't own the boat, this is very difficult and real easy to manipulate. Mostly- I think singular oil samples only serve to add doubt to a deal.

A consciencious owner should never be caught by a singular bad oil sample...they're too easy to avoid by just changing the oil before hand. So a good oil sample really tells a buyer very little unless there is a history to back it up. A bad oil sample is usually not good because either- it is legitimately bad or, the owner couldn't be bothered to change the oil after an incident that could have contiminated it- which suggests he's not a vigilant caretaker.

Keep in mind- this is just one mans opinion.

cuppa · Post by **cuppa** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:22 pm

the recomended numbers are determined by other motors with similar hours and similar oil it is an average of those oil samples that the tech uses to come up with thir average. My numbers were significanlty above that.

guglielmo6160 · Post by **guglielmo6160** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:54 pm

you had the oil tested???? wow

ready123 · Post by **ready123** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:35 pm

cuppa wrote:The test was like 20 Bucks.
The other motor was better but not great high
elevated
tin
Lead
iron
and aluminum
Recomendation was to change oil and check filtration system (oil filter)

How did those numbers compare to the other engine? If close then main worry is coolant and it seems that may be solved with cooler change.
I would pay for oil change and run boat and test oil again to see what you get.

kevin babineau · Post by **kevin babineau** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:28 am

i really like the oil testing thing....but like RWS and jav was saying that it would be a useful tool to monitor the engines with...meaning that every year u take samples and watch for changes....i like the idea since it sounds cheap enough....like i said in other posts i routinely compression test my engines at every tune up (in the spring)..i may throw in an oil test (at fall when i change oil)....having just one test outta the blue with no base figures...i dont kno how that would work...it is a buyers market...good luck

Dan Faith · Post by **Dan Faith** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:17 am

Oil analysis is useful after a baseline has been established. I have continual analysis done on my aircraft engine and it warns me of any potential problems. I had a cam go bad and it gave me warnings long before an engine failure. A baseline will give normal wear of parts within the engine for comparison. The antifreeze I would see as a problem even with the top-end of the engine the oil should have been drained completely and changed along with the filter. I couldn't imagine doing a top-end and leaving the old oil in.