F44-Replace Lectra Sans or Install Holding Tank?

[Lean Wolf]

I am completely renovating my 79 F44 and need to deal with the sewage system. I pulled the sewage lines out of the boat last weekend (wonderful fun that was) and need to decide what to do to get my sewage system back up in order. The boat has original non-working Lectra Sans that need to go. I have been evaluating putting in new Electro Scans or installing a holding tank and running the toilets to the fresh water tanks (I need to install at least one new water tank too). I believe I need to stop running bay water into the toilets to get rid of the smell if I choose a holding tank. Is this true? The old sewage lines and Lectra Sans smelled horrible. I have chartered sailboats that have had holding tanks that smell too. I am seeing pros and cons with both. I would love to install a Vacu-flush system but I just cant spend that kind of money on the job. I am really concerned about smell in the boat. That being said, I am not a huge fan of dumping treated or untreated sewage into the Bay even with new Electra Scans but may ultimately go that way. Has anyone installed a holding tank on an F44? If so, where? I am concerned about the length of the sewage line from either the forward or aft head to a holding tank. Does a mid sewage line pump need to be installed? Any opinions on the Electro Scans? I was told by Raritan today that the Electro Packs need to be replaced every 3-5 years at a cost of $400 for each (two heads in boat) The two heads are older Jabsco Macerator heads that I am going to try to get some life out of. I am completely undecided on where to go with this whole thing and need to figure it out fairly soon. Any help would be much appreciated!

[comodave]

I took out the vacuflush head in my F32 and I am replacing it with a Raritan Marine Elegance. I spoke to Peggy Hall at length and this was the one she recommended above all. I got it online for about $600, if I remember correctly. It has a smart controller that allows you to select the flush size based on what you are flushing. One nice thing about it is that you have the option of using 1" hose for the discharge to the holding tank instead of the 1.5" hose. The 1" is easier to snake through the boat and also holds less volume so it will take less water to push the stuff into the tank so it does not sit in the hose.

I am putting in 2 vents on my tank. Also went with 1" hose for the vents instead of 5/8" so I will get more air flow. Air flow is the key to keeping smells out of your boat. My previous boat had a 80 gallon holding tank that was glassed into the hull. It had the worst smell you could imagine. I tried every chemical I could and nothing worked. My wife did not want to use the head due to the smell that came out of the vent when you flushed the head. I read Peggy's ideas about getting air into the holding tank and installed Groco's Sweet Tank air pump system. I really did not want to drill the 2" hole in the top of the holding tank, but what a great deal it was. It took about 45 minutes to install it. The directions said in about 2 hours the smell coming out of the tank would be gone. It was almost exactly 2 hours to the minute and the smell was completely gone. I never used any chemicals in that holding tank again for the remaining 8 years we owned it and never had any smells.

By using 2 1" vents, one on each side of the boat, I should get air flow through the tank and not have any smell. The bad bacteria are anaerobic and cause the smells. The good bacteria are aerobic and work to help break down the solids. My experience with the Sweet Tank confirm this to me.

[Big D]

I took out the vacuflush head in my F32 and I am replacing it with a Raritan Marine Elegance. I spoke to Peggy Hall at length and this was the one she recommended above all. I got it online for about $600, if I remember correctly. It has a smart controller that allows you to select the flush size based on what you are flushing. One nice thing about it is that you have the option of using 1" hose for the discharge to the holding tank instead of the 1.5" hose. The 1" is easier to snake through the boat and also holds less volume so it will take less water to push the stuff into the tank so it does not sit in the hose.

I am putting in 2 vents on my tank. Also went with 1" hose for the vents instead of 5/8" so I will get more air flow. Air flow is the key to keeping smells out of your boat. My previous boat had a 80 gallon holding tank that was glassed into the hull. It had the worst smell you could imagine. I tried every chemical I could and nothing worked. My wife did not want to use the head due to the smell that came out of the vent when you flushed the head. I read Peggy's ideas about getting air into the holding tank and installed Groco's Sweet Tank air pump system. I really did not want to drill the 2" hole in the top of the holding tank, but what a great deal it was. It took about 45 minutes to install it. The directions said in about 2 hours the smell coming out of the tank would be gone. It was almost exactly 2 hours to the minute and the smell was completely gone. I never used any chemicals in that holding tank again for the remaining 8 years we owned it and never had any smells.

By using 2 1" vents, one on each side of the boat, I should get air flow through the tank and not have any smell. The bad bacteria are anaerobic and cause the smells. The good bacteria are aerobic and work to help break down the solids. My experience with the Sweet Tank confirm this to me.

If this is not a vacuum type system, then no matter how small the discharge line, you will have standing waste in the line between the toilet and the tank. By it's very nature, once there is no liquid in this type of discharge pump, it has no way to push the waste past itself. Whatever is in the discharge line will stay there unless it is self draining (down hill) from the pump to the tank so you must use the best possible hose available on the market that is actually meant to hold waste constantly or it will be just a matter of time before it starts to smell again. Most hoses on the market do not fit into this category and the ones that do are a lot more expensive. The less expensive way is to use solid ABS where possible in areas where you know waste will sit as the solid pipe will be impermeable. The more flexible the hose for ease of installation, the more permeable it is likely to be simply because of the manufacturing process unless one uses the newer hi-tech hose. You should also know that I have on more than one occasion had to dismantle the pump because the impeller was so wrapped in paper that it would just spin and not pump anything. For these reasons and more, I prefer a vacuum type system. A little more complicated install but if installed properly, there is no standing waste in the discharge hose, and with proper maintenance, they're pretty much trouble/smell free IMO.

I most definitely agree with better venting, the more oxygen the better.

[Commissionpoint]

If this is not a vacuum type system, then no matter how small the discharge line, you will have standing waste in the line between the toilet and the tank. By it's very nature, once there is no liquid in this type of discharge pump, it has no way to push the waste past itself. Whatever is in the discharge line will stay there unless it is self draining (down hill) from the pump to the tank so you must use the best possible hose available on the market that is actually meant to hold waste constantly or it will be just a matter of time before it starts to smell again. Most hoses on the market do not fit into this category and the ones that do are a lot more expensive. The less expensive way is to use solid ABS where possible in areas where you know waste will sit as the solid pipe will be impermeable. The more flexible the hose for ease of installation, the more permeable it is likely to be simply because of the manufacturing process unless one uses the newer hi-tech hose. You should also know that I have on more than one occasion had to dismantle the pump because the impeller was so wrapped in paper that it would just spin and not pump anything. For these reasons and more, I prefer a vacuum type system. A little more complicated install but if installed properly, there is no standing waste in the discharge hose, and with proper maintenance, they're pretty much trouble/smell free IMO.

I most definitely agree with better venting, the more oxygen the better.

+++1

Tiger Flex sewage hose if you are going to use any type of flex hose.

I agree with Big D. If there is no vac on the system then its gravity or bust. Any low point or dip in the hose between the input end and the output end is going to collect waste. Eventually that waste is going to produce unpleasent smells unless, like stated, its a hard line. Hard lines are a lot more difficult to plumb effectively in most consumer marine applications.

The PO of my boat did a really nice upgrade/referb of the vaccuflush on my F-32. She was a very detail oriented person, and it shows in the work she did updating the head and tank system. I have seen many a pro job that falls way short of the work she was able to accomplish. All I can say is take your time. Do your homework. Buy the correct materials. Do the install properly. If everything goes well and you did your work right you will get satisfactory results. If you skimp or cut corners, might as well change the name of your boat to $hit $andwich. Cuz thats what its gonna smell like, and its gonna cost more $ to correct it.

[Big D]

The key here is proper installation, and there's more to that than the average DYIer is aware of though Dometic has really good info that's pretty idiot proof. If you follow it properly, the end result should be a system that is the least of your boating worries. Do it wrong and the best of systems will smell. It's more expensive but she'll love you for it! What do they say about a happy wife....? Having said that, it's only part of the overall system; it delivers the waste very effectively to the tank where it is stored. What Comodave briefly touched on such as venting is a very important part of the science behind an odour free on-the-water experience, and a happy wife, guests, and neighbours!

[Lean Wolf]

I certainly appreciate everyone's opinions on the various types of vacuum flush and gravity fed sewage systems. Has anyone had any good or bad experiences with the Electro Scan systems from Raritan? This is the other option I am considering. I think I could purchase the electro scans and complete the work for approximately 60% of the price of the vacuum flush system. I do not want to be cheap here and go with the lesser system just for that reason however with a complete boat renovation going on money is honestly a factor.

[Big D]

.....the Electro Packs need to be replaced every 3-5 years at a cost of $400 for each (two heads in boat)....

That's something that should be considered. You'll save now but pay later! Boat shows are good places for getting deals on Vacu-flush systems if that's where you want to head (pardon the pun!)

[Lorenzoj]

The holding tank on my f-44 is on the port side in the engine room forward of the port engine. I have a 40 gallon holding tank and it is good for two weeks with two adults living on board. One vacuum tank and one vacuum pump is adequate for both heads. The vaccum pump is located beneath the galley floor.

The vacuum pump control system has been modified to use simpler and more durable components. The modification is very extensive, but the system is bullet proof and reliable after the modification.

There are very few places where use of the electrosan toilets is legal for overboard discharge. The only real choices are a holding tank or composting toilets.

Lorenzo Johnson. 1978 F44

[Peacock]

Hi, Drew…the vacu-flush on INTERMISSION is like Lorenzo's except we have 2 pumps-one for each head. Last spring, we had all the hoses replaced and a tank monitor installed by the local vacu-flush dealer. Not cheap. We had a persistent faint smell. Just last month the smell was tracked down to an incorrectly installed gasket on the holding tank sending unit. Now, with a properly sized and installed gasket, the smelly issue seems to be resolved. BTW, Lorenzo's boat, LIL DAVID is currently 4 slips up from INTERMISSION. Looks neat to have 2 of these big gals close to one another.